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Old 04-26-2018, 09:22 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tyler View Post
These are all things I know, though thanks for pointing them out to me again. Honestly it would probably be more helpful if you would share your story with me rather than just criticize me and what us not working. may not take your advice immediatly, but it is filed away and I do not bring it out.

Alternativity you can just keep your snarky comments to yourself. Either way works for me. Take care
You are right I was being snarky and I was directing it squarely at You. The real you , the rational , intelligent, compassionate You.

It was meant to be jarring, to try and shake some of what sure looks like some of your ingrained thinking and maybe shunt That to the side, like the objectivity Algo more deftly asked for.

That ingrained thought process is what answered me though. It shot back with some passive aggressive crap , comparing 'stories' , trying to highlight the idea of some terminal uniqueness that justifies intoxication as an emotional suave. It didn't even try to defend irresponsible and potentially dangerous behavior , just acknowledges it as par for the course as if reasonable responsible people will just excuse and set aside any 'judgement' on such issues, constantly deflecting any discussion on terminating future intoxication.

My story in a nutshell,as far as quitting goes , is like this : in a fairly desperate state I stumbled on SR and found out about AVRT/RR , those ideas resonated with me and I quit, you can too, I believe that even if you don't (yet). My story for why I self intoxicated , in a nutshell was I loved it, and I had/ have myriads of justifications for why I did it , beyond just sheer pleasure , the reasons and justifications I thought( or knew) I needed in order to keep doing it, until I decided to not do it anymore, ever again.

So , yeah, your AV is definitely going to grumble at the concept of never , that is the feature of AVRT, but mostly to shunt any thinking that isn't geared toward keep the supply of intoxicants coming . It will try and convince You that you can't even conceive of the concept , but deftly , probably by having you focus on any other aspect , except that one.

I don't really take the time and effort to be snarky on a recovery forum , just to for the sake of it .
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:01 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tyler View Post
I would like to request some links or book suggestions from those of you who have some long term sobriety. I already have the SMART hand book and The Freedom Model, which I am partially through. I have been somewhat resistant to AVRT as there are somethings that rub me the wrong way, but I really don't know that much about it. Even if it is not the "program" of choice for me, I'm sure I can glean some good ideas from that. I am definitely not an AA guy, but there are a number of things I use from that program too.
I'm just wondering, is it possible that what you're missing, by reading links and books and thinking, is meetings and a sense of personal fellowship? There are lots of meetings that aren't AA, and AA wasn't my choice either, but for example SMART has lots of face-to-face meetings, and in some parts of the country Lifering does too. There are also outpatient medical treatment meetings, and I still occasionally (few times a year) stop by a drop-in meeting after 7+ years just to kinda remind myself of where I used to be so I don't forget. Online forums like this are great, but many (most?) people do better if they include face-to-face contact and a sense of accountability to other people they personally know. Just what I've experienced and seen with others, and sounds like might be missing from what you described above?
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:33 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Hi Tyler.

Do you want to stop drinking? I’m not being snarky, just seriously asking. Because if you really want to stop more than you want to drink you will succeed.

Allen. Carr’s book on controlling alcohol changed the way I viewed alcohol and drinking it. Maybe you could read it. The book This Naked Mind is a modern take of Carr’s stuff plus a lot of other stuff.

I just hope you stop drinking if that is your goal. It is completely possible. I’ve done it for years now and am completely happy with my decision. It is wonderful to know that I never have to drink that muck again. And neither do you.
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:15 PM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Hi Tyler,

I hope you are doing ok today and I agree with the others, you need to switch your mindset and decide that you are done with it no ifs, no buts and no "expecting pot oil in the mail"

Speaking of which, I would strongly recommend that you either trash it immediately without opening the package or if you have a friend who is in chronic pain/terminally ill you just give it to them as a no strings attached present.
You just got to start again from a clean slate.

You asked about personal experience, here is mine in a nutshell:

I was sober for 5 years with the 12 steps, moved and had a very rough time in life (I lost everything and became homeless in sobriety)
My AV told me that since things sucked, I might as well drink because homelessness and poverty was not supposed to happen to an educated, sober, middle class woman.

I was really unprepared at the time (I had no clue about the AV etc... I very rarely had any manifestation of it and did not know about SR) and felt for its lies.

Long story short, I managed to get back out of my material hole; got a job I love, got a home, made friends in my new city but I drank for about 6 years.

Despite what I was told, I did not go back drinking as bad as I was before (alcoholism did not progress) and mostly I managed to "control" it which was in itself a full time job.
I was a closet drinker and drinking made me extremely depressed. Deep down, I knew it was a matter of time before I lost "control" and showed up hungover at my job or before people realized I was a drunk.
I felt like crap about myself and was borderline suicidal.

On a Sunday in January 2013 on my day off, I was finishing a beer and realized I had to go buy some more. I really did not feel like getting dressed and going outside and for some reason something clicked in me and I poured down the rest of my beer and said to myself: I am sick and tired of that crap, I am done with it.

I joined SR, went to AA for a few years but also learned about AVRT, Women for Sobriety etc.... A few years ago, I was working on my 11th step and discovered Zen meditation and realized that mindfulness was a better fit for me so I left AA.
It has been over 5 years now that I am comfortably and permanently abstinent

So you see, if I can do it so can you. You just got to be done with it and seriously mean it. No ifs, no buts, no excuses.

You can do it!!!!
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:03 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
Are none of these CBT techniques youíve mentioned in various posts helpful?
Yes they are, but apparently not enough. I thought had it figured out, but now I think I only have it partially figured out. I really wanted to talk to my therapist about this, but she had to cancel yesterday. I think this is more of a slip due to not dealing correctly with an emotional situation. I need to be more prepared to take this things on in a more healthy manner.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:11 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Addiction is an internally unstable condition. You are using drugs against your better judgement. I did that, too, and for a number of years. My obstinancy and resistance to change led me to attempt to make that unstable condition as stable as possible. Me living with my drunken me went on for over a decade, and I was hard pressed to finally give it up. But when I did, I knew it was over.

I think you, too, have made the normally unstable condition of addiction a way of life for yourself for the last decade, possibly much longer - continuing to use against your own better judgement. Nevertheless, you can end it quickly and completely any time by your own will.

I quit for good before AVRT had been developed, but the pledge had been around for centuries, and thatís essentially what I did. I flipped my alliance with the drunken me overnight. It was wraught with emotion, but I was stubborn and determined. I killed the drunken me and it kept coming back in dreams and a background anxiety and feeling that I had repeatedly failed at the pledge which I had not failed at. As I now know AVRT (and have used it for other permanent abstentions) I realize that is essentially what I did back then.



What about AVRT are you uncomfortable with?
The perceived evangelism rubs me the wrong way. The Big Plan scares me a great deal, commitment of any kind is super hard. All that said, I have made little to no effort to find out more about the program and it is not right to judge without at least finding out what the program is all about. I am going to do that. Thanks for your comments
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:21 PM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
I'm just wondering, is it possible that what you're missing, by reading links and books and thinking, is meetings and a sense of personal fellowship? There are lots of meetings that aren't AA, and AA wasn't my choice either, but for example SMART has lots of face-to-face meetings, and in some parts of the country Lifering does too. There are also outpatient medical treatment meetings, and I still occasionally (few times a year) stop by a drop-in meeting after 7+ years just to kinda remind myself of where I used to be so I don't forget. Online forums like this are great, but many (most?) people do better if they include face-to-face contact and a sense of accountability to other people they personally know. Just what I've experienced and seen with others, and sounds like might be missing from what you described above?
When I was in inpatient treatment I was exposed to 12-step recovery. There are many things that don't work for me. For starters I don't believe in a higher power and I feel that I am truly the only one who has the power to control my addiction. I also don't make friends very easily, so I have a hard time associating with people at meetings. It is a fine program that helps many people, but I just don't think I am one of them.

The IOP idea is interesting though. I have also participated in these in the past and found that it mostly consisted of filling out worksheets, most of which I had already done in inpatient. They were also very 12 step based. This was a number of years ago and it is my understanding that treatment models have changed quite a bit over the years. My ex-wife is the director of a large substance abuse program and she tells me that is not how they do things anymore, When I was in inpatient I found the group sessions to be the most helpful of anything (especially the mens groups) I appreciate the suggestion and am going to look into this. Unfortunately I live in a small area and SMART or Lifering groups are not an option, but I need to go out and do the work if I am going to find the answers.

Thanks again to everyone for their support and suggestions
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:28 PM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tyler View Post
The perceived evangelism rubs me the wrong way. The Big Plan scares me a great deal, commitment of any kind is super hard. All that said, I have made little to no effort to find out more about the program and it is not right to judge without at least finding out what the program is all about. I am going to do that. Thanks for your comments
Hi Tyler. It may be possible that the big plan scares the addicted part of you, because that part of you knows a big plan would work. It is terrified of you cutting off its supply.

Permanent abstinence is yours for the taking, if you want it.
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:48 PM
  # 29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tyler View Post
The perceived evangelism [of AVRT] rubs me the wrong way.
While part of the mission of Rational Recovery is to disseminate information on independent recovery, and to make self-recovery through planned, permanent abstinence a viable option to all addicted people everywhere, there is no component of evangelism in AVRT itself. It is simply a technique, synthesized from the experiences of the self-recovered population.

RR is not AVRT, and vice-versa. Use of AVRT is not dependent on spreading the word, or even on affiliating with Rational Recovery in any way. In fact, RR encourages people to move on with life after both addiction and recovery, upon learning AVRT, and to not hang around. Their forums are no longer open, as they once were, and if you subscribe for short time, you won't receive a notice to renew the subscription once it expires.

However, AVRT is a refined logic engine that is finely tuned to identify any thoughts and feelings that support or suggest any possible future use of alcohol and other drugs. It just so happens that much of the conventional wisdom about addiction supports the possible future use of alcohol and other drugs, and those who know AVRT will recognize it as Addictive Voice.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:05 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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IOPs are all different. I went through two, one I flunked out of and one that saved my life. Neither was 12-step based. The first one catered mostly to down-and-outs who had gone through all kinds of experiences (many associated with meth and heroin) that I couldn't relate to, and did push outside participation in 12-step programs but didn't require it. The second one catered more to middle-age alcohol addicts who I could relate to, and didn't push 12-step at all (though a couple of the counselors individually did). Other IOPs are heavily based around 12-step programs, so it pays to shop around if that's not what you are looking for (it sure wasn't what I was looking for).

I never did inpatient. The first IOP wanted to send me to one, but I didn't really want to go and managed to avoid it by continuing to drink (they required 3 days sobriety before they'd admit you, since they did not have detox facilities). But from what I hear from other folks, it's the same story, pays to shop around.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:30 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tursiops999 View Post
Hi Tyler. It may be possible that the big plan scares the addicted part of you, because that part of you knows a big plan would work. It is terrified of you cutting off its supply.

Permanent abstinence is yours for the taking, if you want it.
I think that is not only possible, but highly likely. What I need to do is learn more about the program than the random nuances that are discussed here, mostly by people with some long term sobriety. Is there an AVRT for Dummies??
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:01 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Thanks again

Thanks for all the great support and advice. Being a stubborn SOB I often ignore it all, but it is still there in the brain kicking around and eventually realize that there are some good ideas there!! I'm pretty sure that is pretty common "addict" behavior!!

I struggle with the whole "Terminally Unique" concept, and maybe it is just because I don't understand it properly. I feel that many of us share similar stories and experiences, we are all different people and process things differently. If that were not the case there would not be so many different "paths to recovery." So maybe I do not properly understand the term.

On a positive note, I did not drink last night after coming off a 3 day bender (unusual, I usually only drink once or twice a week) I will be visiting my son this weekend so there will be no using while I am there.

I went back and read some old emails from my ex when we has just split up. WOW, I was a complete A-hole! I should be so grateful that she is willing to have ANY kind of relationship with me after all the crap I have put her through over the years. She would be out of her mind to try to pursue any kind of relationship with me, it would probably not be good for either of us. I a very thankful that we are as close as we are. I could turn into a saint, but it can't undo the things I've done in the past and that is just the way it is. The sooner I can come to recognize this the better off I will be.

This is not meant to beat myself up in any way, it is just a reality check. I am also of the firm belief that just because I drank yesterday (I actually didn't!) I am under no obligation to drink today.
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:44 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tyler View Post
Is there an AVRT for Dummies??
You are kidding right? ?
There is one right in the stickies

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ined-long.html (AVRT Explained (long))

And this thread (permalinked it through the basic terminology post)

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ml#post3067486 (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion)
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:30 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
You are kidding right? ?
There is one right in the stickies

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ined-long.html (AVRT Explained (long))

And this thread (permalinked it through the basic terminology post)

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ml#post3067486 (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion)
Ah wasn't kidding, but sure enough...there it is!!!

I guess I usually just kinda scroll through the stickies. Thanks for pointing it out and for the other links as well. Take care
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:54 PM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Is there an AVRT for Dummies?
Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
You are kidding right? ?
There is one right in the stickies

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ined-long.html (AVRT Explained (long))
Tyler, you are not a dummy, not by a long shot. AVRT isn't complicated, but its proponents who are familiar with its logic engine can extend the technique and interpret it to answer even the most obscure questions, and this may be offputting to the reader who simply wants to understand what it is about. Maybe I should re-do that sticky post with a more accessible title? If you have a suggestion, let me know.

Please feel free to drop me a pm if I can help.
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Old 04-29-2018, 12:37 PM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Is there an AVRT for Dummies?

Tyler, you are not a dummy, not by a long shot.
Glad to see you. I never meant to imply that Tyler was a dummy or that your thread was stupid.
On the contrary I recommended it because it is one of the most readable/common sense take on AVRT which makes it accessible to everyone. I always send people who are interested in AVRT to your thread.
There is a series of books which are great for novices called
Fill in the blank for Dummies
and this is how I took his request as wanting a simple, easily understandable introduction to AVRT.

Anyway, I m really glad that you are being proactive and that you ordered the book Tyler. You can do it!!
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:56 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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Addiction and Recovery For Dummies:Book Information - For Dummies


omg.
i didn't actually think anything would show up when i googled it, but yup, in the usual yellow and black.
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Old 04-29-2018, 08:20 PM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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I’m sorry, Carolotta, please, no offence was intended to you, nor taken from you. I appreciate you recommended my thread. That was and is its intent, to introduce AVRT to the curious by relating my experience. I know you see it that way, and hope you continue to use it when you think it’s appropriate.

I wanted to reassure Tyler that he is on the right track, and to offer some encouragement, but it seems I was a little clumsy. I hate when that happens. Onward!
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:15 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Hey, just wanted to say that I have not been offended by anyone here! Though I like to think of myself as being reasonably intelligent (though I misspelled that!! Thanks spell check!!) I can be a bit of a "dummy" at times.

I have an extraordinarily thick head and am often resistant to taking well qualified advice. I do take it in though and after kicking it around for awhile often move on it, but I guess oftentimes I a just plain stubborn!!

I appreciate all the suggestions and support I get here. I have been a member here for a long time, most of which I was neither sober or in recovery, so I am thankful for ya'll putting up with me. Thanks again!
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:08 PM
  # 40 (permalink)  
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Freshstart and Tyler, I m glad we are good Sometimes, communicating over the internet can be a bit tricky. While I am fairly fluent, English is my second language and even after all those years, things can get a bit murky for me at times (or maybe it's old age LOL).

Anyway, I am so glad you stayed Tyler. Please don't doubt yourself, you've got it!!

I read the book years ago but one exercise I remember was telling your beast to do something concrete (like lift your hand or fetch you a pen). It can't because it is basically paralyzed.
Unless you cooperate and fall for the AV, the beast can't do anything without your consent.
The beast is a cripple who needs your body and the AV a loud mouth useless bully.
Neither of them pay your rent!
I hope you will keep us updated
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