petals

glad this has been made a sticky. makes it easy to find.
thanks xx

dSober

I hadn't noticed, but yeah!

riig

I have a question about your approach. I find it very interesting and appealing. But, is it only a matter of saying Enough! I will never drink again? Or do I need a support plan?

SoberLeigh

You might get a better response to your question in this thread:



http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...t=LonelyShadow

PratimaMakanji

Freshstart is very active here. If you click on his screen name you can see his most recent posts, or better yet PM him He's a cool dude.

freshstart57

I think it is a good idea to make that unchangeable decision to choose permanent and unconditional sobriety, and to demonstrate this determination in whatever manner seems right for you. That might include reading about addiction, learning about meditation and mindfulness, starting an exercise program, restarting a hobby of yours, all sorts of things. All of these things could be considered to form a support plan.

However, if you phrase your question as one of necessity, will you fail without one more more of these aspects? That to me sounds like a plan to drink again in a way, and it leaves the door open to your AV with the possibility of more booze. If these 'needs' are not met, does that enable further alcohol consumption?

Saying, 'Enough' is certainly at the root here, but there is more to it. We need to develop the ability to recognize thoughts of drinking as they appear, in all forms. We need to be able to separate our directed self from these thoughts. We need to believe that we will succeed, no matter what - after all, all we need to do to succeed is open the hand that holds that highball glass or bottle of beer and allow it to fall away, and we can certainly do that. We need to believe that we can stay abstinent for a moment, and for any moment, but specifically the present moment.

You can look at the Rational Recovery website, google finds it easily, and look into AVRT, for more information. You can do it, riig. Honest.

Greenwood618

"Support plan" makes it sound like you believe you have a disease, or are powerless, or require your hand to be held until bedtime in case you get the urge to drink.

You do not need that. That just encourages the illusion of innocence around your drinking - that is isn't your fault, that huge awesome forces beyond your control are compelling you to drink, forcing it down your throat.

Of course, none of that is true.

So what you need is AVRT, which is a learned thinking skill taught via a decision making guide and written lesson plan by Rational Recovery.

Your urge to drink will never disappear. But AVRT will teach you to ignore them as any mature, rational adult ignores many compulsions each day.

JeffreyAK

Well, urges to drink do come from forces beyond your control, which comes down ultimately to chemical production and distribution in the brain. That's why it's so hard to quit, once you're good and pickled - your brain has adapted itself to your continuous alcohol consumption as best it can, and when you stop you're left with a brain that has adapted to alcohol, but now without alcohol.

Enlightened decision making is fine when you can do that, but many people need a lot more than a book to make through the early days - hence the support plans, secular or otherwise, up to and including inpatient treatment.

Just sounding a bit judgemental there, no one has answers for anyone but him/herself.

brynn

Jeffrey....freshstart and greenwood were replying to this particular post and the poster, riig, is asking specifically about AVRT. And this is an AVRT specific thread by the way.
I find both of their responses incredibly thoughtful and helpful, as usual.
Thanks guys!

freshstart57

To be clear, there are medical issues around withdrawal from alcohol, and it can certainly be life threatening as the depressant is removed and all the systems which had been laboring under this weight are suddenly unburdened. Stuff under autonomic control like blood pressure and heart rate can go haywire, and medical intervention can become critical.

If anyone has any doubt about whether they might need medical care, please please please see a doctor.

Beyond this, failure cannot happen if it can't be imagined. A level of confidence in success pegged arbitrarily and constructively at 100% eliminates any chance of failure. It's a mind hack, true, but it will do what it says on the tin - permanent and planned lifetime abstinence. I believe in my deepest knowing I will never drink again, as sure as anything I can conceive. And so I won't.

JeffreyAK

Sorry, some problem with my post I presume, which I thought was quite appropriate?

anattaboy

If I may add.... I have not been drunk against my will..ever. I used to think I was and THAT is what this very thread eradicated from my dis-eased thinking (and I was slightly buzzed when I read it..but only for a few more days to taper to a safe quit point). Do I have recovery plan? Yes. Pay bills, Smile, and do what I say I'm gonna do. Onward!

FeenixxRising

Jeffrey, you may be interested in learning more about the Rational Recovery (RR) concept and the use of AVRT (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique) to understand why your comment didn't quite resonate on this page. You can google "Rational Recovery" for more information if you're interested.

By design, RR does not recognize that support is necessary for anyone who desires to recover from alcohol or drugs. In fact, RR contends that recovery support groups are detrimental to permanent abstinence.

I understand this view is controversial and that it goes against almost all recovery precepts, but this page is for discussions of secular approaches such as RR, and those of us who are interested in RR accept or at least don't argue vehemently against the basic doctrines of Rational Recovery, including the support group issue. Furthermore, we contend that anyone can use AVRT to choose not to drink or use drugs. However, no one here is attempting to persuade anyone to use AVRT or forgo support groups, rather we don't feel such things are necessary for our own sobriety.

AnotherLife

An extreme newbie here, first post yesterday.

I have read the rules, and I hope I understand them.

Thank you all for secular connections, I didn't know about any of this before yesterday, and I'm pleased to have a new avenue of research.

I cannot speak for anyone else, nor do I wish to do so.

I personally have had difficulty with certain aspects of my previous recovery program. I will use a mixed approach because I need all the help I can get right now.

I read some of the literature about AVRT and it has made sense, real sense.

Who is responsible when I get drunk and behave appallingly?

I am. Not much comfort there, but it rings true.

Can anyone else stop me from drinking?

No, not really. They can offer support, but it's my decision.

So when I am going to take responsibility for my conduct?

Now - I am never going to drink and I will never change my mind.


So refreshing, and to me it feels 100% true.

No maybe tomorrow, no trying again.

I will ignore the Beast. It may speak with my voice, but t isn't me.

Thank you freshstart for your insights.

brynn

Welcome AnotherLife!

So glad you found us and I'm really happy that you've made the decision to never drink again and never change your mind!! The freedom that comes from knowing you hold all the power is a radical realization...at least it was for me! We are truly liberated from the bonds of alcohol once and for all!
There's a really informative AVRT discussion thread you might be interested in, as well...it is right below the stickies in the general Secular Forum.
Hope to see you around the forums!

Greenwood618

Now this is useful.

This is "tradition" - the real lore of self-help, how the vast, vast majority of people stop chronic drunkeness.

A "powerful burst of self determination," some aggressive thinking, some insight into AVRT.

These words you use are replete with strength, pregnant with self-will, maturity and adulthood:

"Responsibility for my conduct."
"Can anyone else stop me from drinking? No."
"I am never going to drink again and I will never change my mind."

You should determine yourself to be 100 percent recovered. I discourage further avenues of research.

You might read RR or take the free short AVRT short course online. But I discourage further research into abstinence, mixing with recovery groups and seeking personal support. You have already got this nailed.

Also, one bit of advice: Do not ignore the Beast. Recognize it. It hates being recognized as "It" as opposed to "You." Like all Beasts, when recognized for what it is, it shuts up and minds its superior.

AnotherLife

Thank you Greenwood,

It feels so alien to say, that's it, I've made my Big Plan. I'm recovered.

I'm going to do the flash cards every day, to remind myself of my self-determination. And I'm going to learn as much about AVRT as I can.

Thank you, you don't ignore the Beast, you recognise it, and I'm very new to that.

I can also understand that any of my previous 'just for today' thinking will give fuel to my Addictive Voice. However, this is all very new - which leads to the idea that there must be more to learn, to really 'get it' - but that is my Addictive Voice as well. Wow, powerful stuff.

I had an AA ring last night, she's very frail, and has leaned on me considerably over the last few months. I found that I couldn't talk to her. I can't do that mind-set. I have always been in a state of cognitive dissonance with that recovery ethos.

You are right - and I am out. The concept that I need continual support is what makes me weak, because it feeds my enemy.

I have self-determination - therefore I chose not to be a drunken loser any more, ever.

Previously, I have been told to 'take the cotton wool out of my ears and stuff it in my mouth'. Not just me, anyone who isn't 'getting it'. Any point at which I disagree is 'stinking thinking'.

I just disagree, not because I know anything about sobriety, but because I know for a fact that I do not have a disease.

If I don't have disease, then I am culpable for my own actions, end of story.

I'm going back to RR now, and will read the whole thing through.

Many thanks for you insight!

dwtbd

Congratulations on your BP Anotherlife !

Greenwood618

Congratulations on your another life, Anotherlife.

eternalLiberty

Very happy for you AnotherLife, I just registered today and i know avrt for some years but didnt knew how to apply it, i will also make my BP today. A little afraid though because of the past failures despite the BPlans i made, but i guess they where not really big plans. But as you said you made a BP today, and you are willing to learn more so you can get it, that idea gave me one more motivation to make mine today, because it means we still need to sharp the skills after the BP because the beast will try to pull us back again and again.