Wholesome

Well, I don't see what someone's sexual orientation has to do with teaching AVRT. Addiction doesn't discriminate, neither should recovery. That's one of the things that appeals to me about AVRT - that it doesn't matter what your background is for the technique to work. It has a specific focus on only trying to change the addiction - nothing more, nothing less.

Algorithm

You are absolutely correct, but there are many who attempt to use Jack's personal views to discredit AVRT, which Jack categorically states he did not invent. He partly learned it from his own experience, but it was refined from the feedback he received from many others who independently recovered.

Either way, it took some fortitude and foresight to set aside personal ideology for a greater good, for both TU and Jack, no?

Perhaps for Morning Glory as well?

Wholesome

Yes, certainly! I am eternally grateful that AVRT was allowed to be taught here on SR. It changed my life, perhaps even saved my life..... and countless more people who have been lucky enough to find this little corner of the internet. Learning AVRT was a total game changer!

aliciagr

This thread is really good. I haven't read from this section before but I saw this thread was started by MorningGlory and so I began going through it.

The AVRT approach seems to be very similar to the overall medical model that the addiction doc suggested my husband use. We did family therapy so I have a fairly good understanding of what he is doing. I had a couple of questions if no one minds my asking ?

I heard someone on this thread say there was a steep learning curve and then AVRT becomes second nature. I can understand that because of two things - the brain begins to heal over time and it actually maps out new pathways. And practice makes perfect with identifying the AV and associated thoughts, feelings, etc. and seeing them for what they are.

But how do you handle the learning curve part?
I can see where AVRT should be able to overcome any level of talk/yelling/begging that the Beast comes up with, but when you first begin there are more triggers, some with deep intensity, and the brain pathways haven't yet had a chance to remap... as I understand, this time frame is when a person is at highest risk for relapse?

Do some people also use CBT and other therapies ? I saw a couple people mention CBT and these are things my husband was taught to use and were considered treatment.

And as you rebuild new pathways in the brain its good to make sure those are formed with as many healthy behaviors and habits as possible. So working on underlying issues that might impede emotional/metal health would be good?

Hope ^ makes sense.

My husband still keeps in touch with his therapist and checks in every couple months mostly to make sure he sort of has his emotional life in balance. It was also suggested he use mindfulness techniques to manage stress and these types of things.

AVRT seems like a very healthy approach and like CBT it seems it could be used for other things. Does anyone use it for anxiety and mild panic attacks? Ive been dealing with this for a while and making progress but not as quickly as Id like .

daveglass1

Afraid that my input from having read the first couple of authors here might be too simplistic for deep thinkers I nearly didnt comment - but - I had a re-think.
My way is - forget word defining and powers and beasts.
Read and listen - see how alcohol effects lives of those who become addicted or those whom would suggest that they are not.
Now you're hear - look at what it has done to you.
In recovery distract yourself - engage yourself in stuff - whatever stuff occupies you and build on these.
By the time youve read - listened - done - you might find that simplistic is an option.
Dave 🤠

Morning Glory

I really like simple, Dave.
I take all the information and process it and put it into simple terms I can understand. It takes me longer to do that, but when I understand it, I understand it really well.

daveglass1

Thank goodness Glory.
I thought I might get blasted - but you get me - phew!
Regards
Dave 🤠

freshstart57

It shouldn’t be Keep It Simple, Stupid - KISS, but Keep It Simple, Genius. I know KISG doesn’t scan as well, but that’s ok.

daveglass1

Nice one Fresh - howsabout?
Keep It Simple Sobriety Is Top !
Or something like that. 😉
Regards
Dave 🤠

MesaMan

.
Applied to myself, the acronym KISD came to mind: Keep It Simple, Drunkard.

Thus, I can allude to my Life having been 'KISD', for it surely has been. SR was pivotal in that.

I'm Keeping Integral Sobriety Simple right now down at Lake Powell on the Colorado River at the Arizona/Utah State Line among the ~330 Million Year-old ancient Seabed Formations. A fine spot to be permanently Sober...
.
.

.
.

Carlotta

^^^
This is breathtaking Mesa!!!!

GerandTwine

A “steep learning curve” means that it is learned very quickly. At first glance AVRT seems quite different than what all the addiction treatment providers suggest, and it is very different. But once it is learned, (See how quickly you are learning it.) then very little time and effort is expended on doing AVRT as the hours, days, months, and then years roll on by. AVRT is usually learned over a period of about ten minutes to ten hours. Whether or not a person who has learned AVRT will USE it is another question.

A shallow learning curve means it takes a long time to learn something. The majority of recovery programs actually have a horizontal learning curve. Members must continue “learning” for the rest of their lives, one day at a time, because of the infinite number of possible “triggers” out there that could make your recovering alcoholic drink again.

Anyone can quit for two weeks. By that time AVRT can be completely understood and the Big Plan implemented. That’s why AVRT is such an ironclad method of independent recovery. If your husbands addiction physicians were using something like AVRT, then they would encourage him to avoid attending Recovery Groups by all means. That is a fundamental awareness people quickly discover when using AVRT. If those addiction docs were not encouraging complete avoidance of recovery groups, then they were using the “structural model of addiction” for purposes completely alien to AVRT. Attending Recovery Groups is doing the opposite of utilizing the “steep learning curve” of AVRT.

AVRT is a stand alone method. When using AVRT an addicted person quickly comes face-to-face with the inevitability of using his/her “WILL” against the habituated “POWER” of the chemical dependency, and making the pledge, “I will never drink again.”

AVRT is specifically for ending addictions. I’ve never heard of it being used for anxiety or panic attacks, and do not know how it could be used for those. Once a person has used AVRT and made the Big plan, both addiction and recovery is over. Then would be the time to seek out professional help with other mental health problems - as a common teetotaler.

MindfulMan

My Intensive Outpatient Program utilized both CBT and mindfulness practices. Both were very useful for managing both cravings/addictions and depression/anxiety.

CBT involves looking at your thoughts that trigger a negative emotional reaction (panic attacks, withdrawal, etc) or behavioral (in our case taking a drink/line/shot/pill whatever). Nearly all of the time if you look at the thoughts they are distorted. If you reprocess them in a rational way they are not nearly as damaging, or triggering, and the rational replacement thoughts can be roadmaps to future success.

Mindfulness involves being very aware of more moments, sensations and BEING in your life. Meditation is but one practice for mindfulness. I found it very useful to manage cravings. When I got a craving, how did it feel in my body? If I fought a craving, what happened? If I looked at it objectively, what happened (hint....the latter works much better for me).

I believe that both depression and anxiety have roots both in somatic/physical causes and cognitive ones. CBT can be of great use in treating a lot of the symptoms, which is good, as there are no good anti-anxiety medications for the long term that aren't addictive and that don't lose effectiveness.

aliciagr

In recovery distract yourself - engage yourself in stuff - whatever stuff occupies you and build on these. By the time youve read - listened - done - you might find that simplistic is an option.
Dave ��

I like mixing up my thinking DaveGlass. Sometimes deep but then I find joy in things like this... Now if I knew how to post a picture it would be much more artful.. but I bought this plaque for part of my summer décor:

Advice from a Starfish
Seas the Day
Be Shore of Yourself
Catch a Wave ~~~ Don't Get Carried Away
Don't Be a Shellfish
Avoid Pier Pressure
Make Friends not Anemones
Reach for the Stars

and of course it has a beautiful starfish pictured there. Will have to take a moment and envision it. Could be considered a mindfulness exercise. ha

3trees

Hello All,

How is the forum Secular Recovery different than other forums?

I am on Day 17 because I found SR by googling "I made an ass out of myself at Easter." SR has helped me stay focused in my decision to stop drinking completely.

As I have been looking at resources and posts, I have read about AVRT, and it seems to align with my approach to this process. I simply will not drink. It is a conscious decision each and every time I am confronted with the option.

Others have said they avoid bars and social activities because they aren't strong enough. I have not avoided those "regular" outings because TO DRINK OR NOT TO DRINK is a decision I am faced with and will be faced with the rest of my life.

Is that kind of what this forum focuses on more than others? Would this be a better fit for my approach to this life choice and decision?

I have decades of irresponsible drinking under my belt. Quitting is obviously not an easy task...but I don't see it as an addiction or dependence that I cannot overcome.

Can you advise?

Thanks!

Wholesome

Hi 3trees! Welcome to SC, IMO this is the gem of SR. Learning about AVRT freed me from a long struggle with alcohol abuse, there are members on here who really know their stuff - have a read around and you'll see.

To answer your question, yes many of us here use AVRT and we've made a pledge to ourselves to never drink again, no matter what. Not one day at a time. AVRT is a technique about recognizing and disassociating from thoughts that would be considered Addictive Voice - basically any thoughts, feeling or images about future drinking. It takes a bit of getting used to but once you get the hang of it, it's effortless.

dwtbd

Congratulations on you decision and welcome aboard 3trees!

At the top of this forum is a sticky "AVRT Explained(long)" on the last page is a link that will lead to many other great threads discussing AVRT, highly recommend a perusal
There is also the 'newly' created forum Permanent Abstinence Based rec, hope to see you around

tyler

I think the simple explanation to this question is not based on the need of a Higher Power in your recovery. There are a wide variety of beliefs regarding the existence of a Higher Power, but the idea is that believing in one is not necessary for your recovery. Generally this is even more simply explained as not 12-step (though there is a Secular 12-step forum!!) This is not to say that there is anything wrong with 12-step recovery, it just dominates the discussion in most of the other forums and in the interests of trying to stop the "flame wars" that would sometimes develop, it was decided that the best solution was to create a separate forum for "Secular" discussions.

In recent years AVRT has begun to dominate the discussion here in the Secular Forum, but it is far from the only secular form of recovery, just the most discussed. If you think AVRT is a good solution for you, by all means go for it. However if you dig a bit deeper into some of the older posts you will find a variety of discussions about other programs and ideas like Lifering, SMART, CBT based recovery (which is really more of a theory than a program) and many others.

Personally I enjoy reading about all of these ideas and picking and choosing what works for me. Others prefer the structure of a more organized program. The most important thing is to find ideas that work for you.

Many of the discussions here get pretty in-depth in dissecting ideas into minutiae. Some find this to be helpful, some not so much. The best advice I can offer is an AA slogan, "Take what you need and leave the rest behind", or something like that! Anyway, welcome to the forum, hope you find something you can use!!

aliciagr

This makes perfect sense. thank you, very good explanation !


I had to think about this for a bit. The addiction doctor my husband uses doesn't encourage him to use recovery groups, and def. not on a horizontal curve.. There are true similarities in the Will being able to overcome the Power, but differences too because of the use of CBT types of therapies where it adds in an element of Reason/Logic, I think I see how that changes the the learning curve and would affect the purity of AVRT.

Haa this made me laugh- common tea totaler - because its true. When he sees his doctor now its not about sitting and discussing addiction. Its about common emotional and mental health issues where he finds the guidance helpful.

You know on the family side of things it can be confusing to understand how treatment like CBT, or techniques like AVRT work for substance use issues. In part I think its because of preconceived notions. This is why doing the Family sessions has helped me a lot. But, for example my MIL has a hard time with the approach my husband uses (even though he is doing fine) and she is still under the opinion that his therapy appointments are too few, and he lacks support through groups. She is seeing it all through the lens of that horizontal recovery line and she fears every day for him ( haa don't worry I wont send here over here to you guys)

Very interesting and Im going to stick around and read more on this section of the forum.

The more I think about it, I can see the difference too. Its more like the circuitry is off in my brain right now but hopefully it will get better.

thank you for taking the time to go into depth with your reply to me.

aliciagr

Thank you MindfulMan. Now how did you pick your user id?

Its great your IOP offered those and it was so helpful.

Oh yeah my thoughts are definitely distorted with the anxiety and panic. Its such a strange thing to experience. Ive been using CBT to help with it and Ive made progress. At first I wasn't even able to see the irrationality of the feelings and it would often turn into panic.

For example, I would go into a store and the anxiety would begin before I walked in, amplify with the bright lights, the colors, people moving, noises. Then panic would set, real physiological symptoms kick in, and then the voice saying, get out of here!

And taking my son to his doctors appointments (geez they have a lot of appointments in the first 6 months) and I would be a wreck just thinking about how it would feel.

And then I started to begin understanding all of this was related to fearing something bad was going to happen anytime...

and now I feel like Im also going deeper and realizing, this in part is about trusting myself. I allowed myself to get out of control emotionally and I felt powerless in the recent past. And now I fear that I wont be able to handle what life may bring my way. So my poor little mind says, for petes sake, just avoid life and nothing bad will happen. Don't go out there in the world, dont let the world come to you. UGG.

I now dont panic when I go to the store. It took me a while but I began by making a plan.. when I get there I will go this way, and I will do this.. and as these things go ok.. then I began to expect it would be ok.

Im going to figure it out ! I can see the irrationality now and look at it objectively where at first it had too much power over me.

Love mindfulness too. My husband is so sweet, he uses these also and has been helping me. He will walk me through visualization scenes where I focus on breathing, feeling calmness -when I begin to feel panic. It really helps. I can use it when we are sitting in the waiting room at the Dr office with my son.. it can be used anywhere and its great.

Thank you for sharing with me !