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Reconiciling AVRT and F2F support

Old 03-16-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
what about reconciling AVRT with _online_ (peer) support?
As has been pointed out, attempting to reconcile something that goes completely against it's very tenets simply isn't possible by definition.

Your questions are somewhat akin to asking a vegetarian how to reconcile eating meat. Certainly an individual could choose to follow a mostly vegetarian lifestyle to improve/change their health, but also eat lean meat once a month. That is a personal choice, and it may very well help them achieve their health goals - but that person could not then call themselves a vegetarian by the strict sense of the definition.

You ( or anyone ) can certainly choose to use parts of AVRT and also go to LifeRing meetings for example. And it could result in you never drinking another drop of alcohol in your life. And if it did work, whether or not your actions could be reconciled by AVRT's strictest definition really doesn't matter to you, does it?
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:15 AM
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Whenever I think about dogmatic purists I can't help thinking about Monty Python's "The Life of Brian" where the Judean People's Front hated the People's Front of Judea with a passion! If a tool is good enough for you then it's good enough whatever its name and whatever it's made up off.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AlericB View Post
Whenever I think about dogmatic purists I can't help thinking about Monty Python's "The Life of Brian" where the Judean People's Front hated the People's Front of Judea with a passion! If a tool is good enough for you then it's good enough whatever its name is.
I think it's also important to remember that if being a "dogmatic purist" works for someone in their quest for sobriety, that's also OK for them too ;-)
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:23 AM
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Indeed as long as, to use another Monty Python reference, they don't become the Spanish Inquisition
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:02 PM
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Why does AVRT--despite its internal locus of control--have moral and familial implications? Externalities or internal belief systems? Or do internal belief systems have external ramifications? Do externalities affect internal beliefs pursuant to this model?
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
Why does AVRT--despite its internal locus of control--have moral and familial implications? Externalities or internal belief systems? Or do internal belief systems have external ramifications? Do externalities affect internal beliefs pursuant to this model?
It's the same either way. If morals have objective or absolute truth, you choose whether to respond to them or not. If they only have subjective meaning to you then they are self-created and you have chosen to create them, that is, you have chosen your own moral values. Either way, it's all about your choice and your responsibility. And that's not specific to AVRT.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
Why does AVRT--despite its internal locus of control--have moral and familial implications?
You could ask the very same question about any belief system in the world. Belief in anything will change how you think about other things of course, it's not like our minds operate like a library where every concept is an individual book with a first and last page.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:22 PM
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when people trade a destructive habit for a constructive one (e.g., working out 7 days a week for 3 hours a day to drinking 7 nights a week for 3 hours a night), what would one attribute this motivation to?

Semantically, it's not the addictive voice under the model, but whatever it is, it's something palpable.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:35 PM
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makes sense Scott, but recognizing the addictive voice strikes me as disparate from having a moral framework, in terms of dealing with said voice.

But, whatever the framework, one must exist, I guess.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
makes sense Scott, but recognizing the addictive voice strikes me as disparate from having a moral framework, in terms of dealing with said voice.
So perhaps a different belief system or recovery plan would suit you. There's nothing wrong with that.

Here on SR we certainly allow for discussion of disparate moral framworks/beliefs. Having said that, we don't allow argumentation about which one might be "better or worse" than another.
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AlericB View Post
Whenever I think about dogmatic purists I can't help thinking about Monty Python's "The Life of Brian" where the Judean People's Front hated the People's Front of Judea with a passion! If a tool is good enough for you then it's good enough whatever its name and whatever it's made up off.
My favorite comparison to the quest for recovery from addiction is the British TV series “Longitude” about the eighteenth century quest for horizontal earth position upon seafaring ships. Therein John Harrison invents the marine clock that perfectly solves the problem along with a sextant. The movie is essentially about how he has to educate the Royal Longitude Society. Only after years of dogmatic, purist stonewalling did the Society accept that the obvious is true.

What that society did to Harrison’s solution to longitude is what I see everywhere within the addiction recovery community today to deny and obfuscate the simple pledge of unconditional permanent abstinence.

Everywhere AVRT surfaces in the public arena, there is a tremendous effort with vast amounts of dialogue that tries to mould AVRT and the Big Plan into something that it isn’t.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:22 PM
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AVRT; Personal responsibility; morality, love, trust, and the family

Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
Why does AVRT--despite its internal locus of control--have moral and familial implications? Externalities or internal belief systems? Or do internal belief systems have external ramifications? Do externalities affect internal beliefs pursuant to this model?
Your questions almost imply that love and trust within family and friendships should be exclusive to people who claim powerlessness over alcohol/drugs ending up in their bloodstream. I believe reality is the opposite. People who DO take personal responsibility for their own behavior are more likely to succeed at shared love and trust in their close/intimate relationships.

It’s hard to trust and love someone who has a history of horrible behavior while under the influence and is not willing to finally promise “I will never drink/drug again.”

If you choose not to invest a few dollars for the book “Rational Recovery, The New Cure”, you can still get detailed and logical answers for your questions within the Rational Recovery website.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Your questions almost imply that love and trust within family and friendships should be exclusive to people who claim powerlessness over alcohol/drugs ending up in their bloodstream. I believe reality is the opposite. People who DO take personal responsibility for their own behavior are more likely to succeed at shared love and trust in their close/intimate relationships.

It’s hard to trust and love someone who has a history of horrible behavior while under the influence and is not willing to finally promise “I will never drink/drug again.”

If you choose not to invest a few dollars for the book “Rational Recovery, The New Cure”, you can still get detailed and logical answers for your questions within the Rational Recovery website.
I believe that what we are seeing here is the repetition of what has become a common theme in the past few months.

That is, there is a certain segment of people who don't like their bad behavior pointed out while drinking and decline to accept the reversal of such as a reason to quit.

Rather, quitting is attributed to "happiness" or "freedom" or something else. Some people are unwilling to accept any restriction on their impulses imposed from the outside.

And with that, comes hostility toward AVRT, which is based on the unity, peace and prosperity of the human family and its hostility toward immoral behavior such as chronic drunkeness.

Of course, anyone is free to create whatever notions they wish, and in fact, a central tenet of AVRT is something all mature adults recognize, and that is that no one particularly cares how, or even if, you quit drinking.
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:53 PM
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I removed a post that pointed out problems with other recovery methods.

I really understand that a part of AVRT is deprogramming from other recovery methods, but we just can't do that here. It causes too many problems.

I know it hinders a big part of what you are trying to say, but it also protects you from other methods coming in and debating the issue. It keeps the peace.
I encourage you to discuss those issues in private messages if it is something you wish to understand better.
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Old 03-17-2018, 03:37 PM
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Thanks for the post, golfreggie.
I had to remove it because the big book and 12 step posts are off topic in the Secular Connections forum.
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Old 03-17-2018, 04:15 PM
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If I understand the crux of the OP intent (as he's also attended AA and SMART) there's an interest in seeing some commonalities between that and AVRT(?) Correct me if I'm wrong. I guess in the spirit of that (and know that I wouldn't try to disparage one mode of recovery v. another) I've been meaning to understand a little better where the basis for 'I will not drink again' is formed (as opposed to 'one day at a time'). Just for my own edification and clarity. A link to a previous post would be good...I am continuing to investigate and again, this is out of curiosity. I just couldn't locate a post or previous info that elaborated on this...

Thx.
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Old 03-17-2018, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TheToddman View Post
I've been meaning to understand a little better where the basis for 'I will not drink again' is formed (as opposed to 'one day at a time').
First, you must replace the “not” with “never”. “I will never drink again”.

This is the timeless pledge of unconditional permanent abstinence that is as historically prominent as the Ten Commandments and other moralisms that help people enjoy and trust the society in which they live.

It is also the Big Plan of Rational Recovery’s Addictive Voice Recognition Technique which is modeled after how people have been recovering from addiction on their own for centuries.

When an addicted person makes the Big Plan, they often have a flood of thoughts and feelings which are easily sorted out. All thoughts and feelings doubting that plan are from IT - your Addictive Voice - the old appetite that has no control of YOUR voluntary muscles. On the other hand, all thoughts and feelings that relate to your having made a huge positive change for your future by simply deciding to never again do a very particular voluntary activity - putting alcohol in your blood - are the authentic YOU. Thus, AVRT.

“One day at a time” is a much more recent development born out of two parents: its father being the excuses for not taking the pledge that drunkards invent who don’t want to quit once and for all; its mother being the gigantic service industry invented to help those drunkards legitimize their excuses and help them work on those excuses instead of recognizing them as red herrings and bluffing. The discovery of excuses by unrepentant drunkards began in earnest almost two hundred years ago when the Washingtonians made it common knowledge that any drunkard could take the pledge and make it stick. Before that time, it was generally thought that drunkards were hopeless cases, and would die that way.
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Old 03-18-2018, 11:35 AM
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I just wanted to share my personal experience here
This is my second (and last) time quitting. I had 5 years sober via the 12 steps, relapsed and was out for about 6 years and I have been now abstinent/sober for 5 years.

When I quit drinking this time, I went back to AA and worked the steps but I also embraced parts of other methods. I attended some meetings of WFS, did a little bit of CBT and also incorporated some elements of AVRT. At the time, I felt I needed to be in the presence of others who had long term abstinence and get some support (I also joined SR) from my peers. I also knew I had to look at my own patterns and behavior and take responsibility for my actions past and present (hence step work). I trusted my guts on it.

These days, I just enjoy mindfulness and meditation (got into it when I was on the 11th step) and I don't attend F2F meetings anymore ...well occasionally, I ll catch Refuge Recovery mainly because I enjoy sitting with others ( it s nice to be in a sangha once in a while) and it gets me out of the house,

I am a pretty fluid person and I also tend to take things with a grain of salt so I am not "purist" material for any method LOL.

Here is what I embraced and really liked about AVRT:

- Making a firm commitment to never drink again. Yep, it might makes the AV squirms but I know that if I embraced the one day at a time concept, I would be fooling myself and leaving the door open to the idea of maybe drinking again some day. Now this is what works best and makes most sense to me. I remember telling someone in recovery that I would never drink again, she told me "never say never", well I guess that was were her head was at, not mine because I am still firmly abstinent and she is off to the races. One day at a time or let's not think about it might work best for others but it's not me.

- The concept of the Addictive Voice and How to recognize it and handle it. I have a very quiet AV which rarely raises its head, when I relapsed after 5 years, I was completely unprepared. The thought came onto me, I had not idea what I was dealing with. I had worked the steps but I was not aware of the nature of the beast and the AV.
Being able to recognize IT, and dissociate myself from it is a very useful tool for me (once again, my personal experience, others might vary).

Anyway, I am content and firmly abstinent for life. I am also fluid and have no problem adjusting my tools according to my needs. Some people do excellent sticking to one method purely, I do better with a bric a brac, my "recovery" journey and toolbox looks a lot like the inside of my purse

The main thing is to be brutally honest with yourself and commit to stop poisoning yourself.
Don't pick something then something else because it sounds easier. One day at a time can be really helpful to some but also can be an open door to drinking again. AVRT can be really good as a firm commitment to lifelong abstinence but can also be the regretful quacking of someone who means it at the time but think that there will be less work involved. Meetings and F2F support can be awesome motivation tools or a way to hide from the real world and dwell in the past (I think it's what AVRT folks call the collective AV). Doing it alone with AVRT can be the way to take full responsibility and hush the beast but it could also be an excuse to isolate.

Whatever you chose to do or not do, ask yourself where you are coming from and what are your true motives.

What matters is that we stopped poisoning ourselves and climbed out of that dark pit of alcoholic despair. We can share with others how we did it, explore different ways, be pure or mix and incorporate...it's all good with me. It's good to be alive and sober and to everyone on this thread

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Old 03-18-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
I have a very quiet AV which rarely raises its head, when I relapsed after 5 years, I was completely unprepared. The thought came onto me, I had not idea what I was dealing with. I had worked the steps but I was not aware of the nature of the beast and the AV.
Your AV would love you to desire its silence. Try “shifting” more often to keep it under laser focus. The above quote is a good example of why Rational Recovery is completely incompatible with today’s recoveryism.

Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
AVRT can be really good as a firm commitment to lifelong abstinence but can also be the regretful quacking of someone who means it at the time but think that there will be less work involved.
People who “quack” the Big Plan and don’t mean it know that they don’t mean it. AVRT really IS much less work involved. AVRT allows completely recovered people to avoid a lifetime of thousands of hours of meetings and thousands of dollars of costs in real money and lost time.

Recoveryism really is an expensive way for drunkards to maintain the guise of irresponsibility over having more to drink. When you state “I had no idea what I was dealing with” - it was simply a decision whether or not to follow through on the opportunity to swallow more alcohol. After 5 years of struggling with others claiming powerlessness, I suppose it could be somewhat confusing.

Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Meetings and F2F support can be awesome motivation tools or a way to hide from the real world and dwell in the past (I think it's what AVRT folks call the collective AV).
The collective AV is much more than F2F “support”. Society tries to justify the collective AV by saying it’s impossible to know which drunks really mean it when they say they quit for good and which ones are lying about it as so many do. So authorities relegate drunkards to the lowest levels of personal responsibility available.

This lowest level IS within Recoveryisms diseased powerless one-day-at-a-time-ism which can be monitored by the authorities (such as family, employer, govt.). Some recovery groups/programs are structured on philosophies of counseling (which I believe have nothing to do with how to quit for good) but as we have heard many of them end up being swallowed up by the needy quacking (I like that term) of excuse seeking drunkards.

Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Doing it alone with AVRT can be the way to take full responsibility and hush the beast but it could also be an excuse to isolate.
This is the height of an aggressive and unbridled Addictive Voice. I have never heard of AVRT being blamed as an excuse, let alone an excuse to “isolate”. Drunkards who don’t really want to pledge abstinence using personal responsibility are very happy to “isolate” within the Recovery Group Movement where society has stigmatized them into diseased powerlessness. But there are people trapped within that “isolation” who really did quit for good and don’t see an easy way out back into UNisolated REAL LIFE. I was one. The book RR: The New Cure taught me how to do it, in spades.
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Doing it alone with AVRT can be the way to take full responsibility and hush the beast but it could also be an excuse to isolate.
The only "isolating" I do is as far away as possible from fellowships of drunks and former drunks sniffing each other's beasts.

And I don't need excuses to "isolate." If I want to be alone, I simply do it. AVRT has nothing to do with anything other than abstaining from alcohol.

The passive aggressive non-sequiturs and ad hominems - sure signs of riled collective AV - are piling up fast now.
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