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Old 01-11-2018, 03:49 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Doesn't every method require an element of faith?


I like what I've read about AVRT.
But it does strike me that to apply any model of "recovery" requires a level of faith. If even in that model.

I suppose what I'm saying is, I seem to question the rationale in things. AA I did but could never take it seriously, as I don't believe in a god. They told me I didn't have to but then said the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings, which suggests it's not only god based but Christian based.

I apply this critical analysis to all models too. So, I'm looking at AVRT and wonder where I'll find holes.
Does anyone else do this?
I know I'd probably find things easier if I could follow instructions without question but it's just not me.
Anyway, I've made my Big Plan.
And I immediately don't believe it, which I understand is my AV.
My AV led me to a drink last night and I wasn't watching out for it.
I must become more attuned to it.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:54 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Hey Eric,
I'm a devout atheist too. Probably more of an antitheist if I'm honest, but I've decided not to get too hung up about that. Here in Ireland it would be all too easy to get hyped up about the hypocrisy of it all as you probably well know.

You say you have a problem having "faith" in a recovery method. The very word faith has religious overtones which is clearly anathema to you. Try the word trust instead.
"I trust AVRT." That sounds OK to me.
I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning anything. In fact, it's very healthy. I too have questioned AVRT and can absolutely find no holes whatsoever. And I am as headstrong as they come.
My BP is cast iron solid. I WILL NOT DRINK AGAIN. EVER.
What's not to believe?
Any other hint towards straying from my BP is the beast's AV. It's a neural pathway that I've nurtured for years. Of course there's resistance to my SELF actively changing the way I choose to react to the AV.
But, and here's the beauty of this simple method, I control my motor faculties. Not a, soon to become defunct, neural pathway which is after all merely a thought.
Modern brain scanning has shown that the brain can and does physically change. It is known as neural plasticity. So in time, my brain structure will change and the thoughts of drinking will become progressively weaker.

So it's ME who decides whether my hands lift a drink to my lips and, tough tittie beast, that's not happening.



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Old 01-11-2018, 06:25 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I had faith that if other drunks could get sober, so could I.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Your AV didn’t lead you to drink. It can’t , It’s just a thought , you agreed with a thought and acted on it.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The only thing that is required is to abstain from drinking alcohol.

AVRT is the best method for that.

Philosophy, logic, rhetoric, etc, blah blah blah don't matter.

AVRT is not a philosophy, it might well not even be logical and it probably can't stand up to 1,000 questions.

But it doesn't matter if it computes or not. It is only designed to outwit the rogue survival drive which itself is illogical, deceitful and paranoid.

For that, it works great. Why complicate things?
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RecklessEric View Post
So, I'm looking at AVRT and wonder where I'll find holes.
Does anyone else do this?
You will find holes wherever you want. The people who do this are the ones looking for holes. It is just your AV in a sense.

Faith is essentially a belief in something that cannot be proven. However, having faith in yourself is nothing more than a mindset - self trust.
So just have faith in yourself that you will never drink again nor will you change your mind - if that's what you want for yourself. There are no holes in that concept at all. If you drink again, you made the choice to drink again. Faith has nothing to do with it. It's a decision. That is all.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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RecklessEric ~

You raise a fair question that is well-covered above, and can be distilled down to these laudable Behaviors posted by Trohyn:

'But, and here's the beauty of this simple method, I control my motor faculties. Not a, soon to become defunct, neural pathway which is after all merely a thought.'

'So it's ME who decides whether my hands lift a drink to my lips and, tough tittie beast, that's not happening.'

My Wife was a Volleyball Player, and Coach. She was an Early Adopter - Decades ago - of 'Muscle Memory' Regimen. In Practice, you slam down Spikes until your Brain is out of the Response Loop. The Chinese Olympic Team, for one, trains this way. Mercilessly. In a like manner, before he hit the Links daily, Tiger Woods would reportedly drive 500 Balls off the Tee to hone his Muscle Memory.

Read above. Trohyn has reduced his response, Muscle Memory-style, to not lift a Drink. Picking up that First One just ain't a happenin'.

This is what I did, and continue to do. It is not an Article of Faith. It is the establishment of an Autonomic System Response and 'Firewall' where Alcohol is involved. This approach simplifies Sobriety tremendously while we re-tool ourselves ground-up to no longer submerge in Alcohol.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:13 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks for your responses.
All good points and very helpful.
I will trust the AVRT model and I will never drink again.
That's a pretty awesome statement.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:50 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I usually use the word 'trust' too because 'faith' has religious connotations that can confuse matters if you're not religious but also if you are!

There is a difference though, for instance I'd use the word 'faith' with AVRT in the sense of commitment, as in being faithful, to the model rather than looking to try out different approaches, and 'trust' in the more active sense of having complete confidence in the technique and in my ability to abstain.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I think that in order to be successful quitting permanently, you need to have an element of faith.

Whether it is faith in a hp or faith in yourself or just faith that if you quit, things will get better you have to be able to look upward, inward or forward in order to make some permanent effective changes.

If you don't then it means you are just stuck in a hopeless situation with no way out.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Faith is a difficult word to use sometimes because many people can't think of the word 'faith' without also thinking of the word 'irrationsl'!

I don't think that making a BP is an irrational leap of faith. It's a rational thing to do. But it's not purely rational because the decision cannot be fully confirmed by your prior knowledge and experience. It's a new and deeply changing experience and one that you haven't gone through before.

Even if you find yourself making a BP more than once, each time you make it is still a new experience because you've had to analyse why you failed and account for this in your new decision.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:20 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone would embark on any course of recovery without some faith, belief or trust in a reasonable expectation of a positive outcome.

whether people choose to base that expectation on science, demonstrated results, or something more supernatural is down to personal preference.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:41 AM   #13 (permalink)
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So, I'm looking at AVRT and wonder where I'll find holes.....
So you can justify drinking again? I didn't use AVRT and can't speak to that particular approach, but I do recognize that sort of attitude from my own drinking days, and I promise that if you're looking for holes, you will find holes. If we keep drinking until all the planets are aligned and everything is perfect, we'll drink ourselves to death because that will never happen, and so perfect becomes the worst enemy of "good enough". My favorite approach is, take what you can use from wherever you can find it, don't get hung up on anyone else's dogma, and don't drink no matter what happens.
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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How about this angle? I heard from TU often to set one's confidence in their success arbitrarily at 100%, and assign all doubt and fear to the beast. It's a neat closed construct that serves the purpose well.

I suppose the words faith and confidence have similar meanings in our context. I much preferred to see faith in myself through self empowerment as essential to my success rather than faith in the existence of a supreme being. A matter of personal choice.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yes, and I think it's intriguing why our personal choices are so different. Whenever I read through the Newcomers forum I often read something that makes sense to me but clearly it didn't mean too much to the OP and they preferred other suggestions.

I think this goes to show that our choice of recovery method is not made on purely theoretical grounds for which there is overwhelming scientific evidence on which we can all agree.

But while theory is hesitant here we still have to act with the 100% confidence TU spoke about. This strikes me as not irrational but as a very reasonable way of accounting for our human freedom of choice.

Perhaps we could say our choice is made by a leap of reason, not a leap of faith!
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:21 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I think this goes to show that our choice of recovery method is not made on purely theoretical grounds for which there is overwhelming scientific evidence on which we can all agree.
What does science have to do with abstaining from alcohol?

There is developing here lately the erroneous view that AVRT is just another alternative, less preachy and religious than some, but still just another alternative route to abstinence, distinguished mostly by the fact that you don't have to go to church of one sort or another.

This is incorrect. Everyone quits via AVRT whether they call it that or not. And have for centuries. AVRT is simply the collected lore of instantly recovered people who made a powerful burst of self determination.

As does everyone, regardless of how much hand holding, praying, cursing, list-making, attempts to distract oneself all day long, etc. preceded it.

Further, AVRT is mute on religion. It is perfectly compatible with any and all religious views, or none at all.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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What does science have to do with abstaining from alcohol?
Science in the sense of a verifiable rule: If you follow method X you will recover. As you say, there isn't one.
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:50 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Yes, and I think it's intriguing why our personal choices are so different. Whenever I read through the Newcomers forum I often read something that makes sense to me but clearly it didn't mean too much to the OP and they preferred other suggestions.
And this is why a resource like SR is so important.

Someone might be stuck in their own alcoholic despair and others members share their approach. Hopefully, something will click and make sense and that person will be able to get "unstuck" and move forward.

It is a bit like someone being stuck in a pit and crying for help: Tomsteve, Freshstart, Opivotal and I can come and throw them our ladders.
Hopefully, that person will have confidence that one ladder is strong and sturdy and use it to get out of the hole.

The ultimate goal is to make it to the surface so the more ladders, the better...the person still has to take action, grab a ladder and climb out though.
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:53 AM   #19 (permalink)
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What does science have to do with abstaining from alcohol?

There is developing here lately the erroneous view that AVRT is just another alternative, less preachy and religious than some, but still just another alternative route to abstinence, distinguished mostly by the fact that you don't have to go to church of one sort or another.
I haven't noticed this. I'm curious, Greenwood, is there evidence?
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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" Just stop drinking and don't ever drink again, do you think you can do that ?"

any answer other than "Yes" is 'recovery' , the answer is yes or a method , pick one
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