Doesn't every method require an element of faith?
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine 
As time passed for me, having that next drink required a huge mass of faith involving scores of elements. Me and my Beast were as one, hoping hoping everything would turn out okay by the time the drunk was over. Faith and good fortune was paramount.
When fortune finally went bad enough and I made the Big Plan I look back and see faith as being absolutely no part of not drinking or even knowing I would never drink. That certainty was the opposite of faith.
When fortune finally went bad enough and I made the Big Plan I look back and see faith as being absolutely no part of not drinking or even knowing I would never drink. That certainty was the opposite of faith.
Otherwise why would we do it?
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Originally Posted by RecklessEric
Yes. But all this debating about language and phrasing; about technique and method does sound to me like interpretation of guidance. And so, if we are investing our emotional and physical energy into interpreting guidance, surely there is an element of faith in this guidance.
Otherwise why would we do it?
Otherwise why would we do it?
I put zero energy into the concept. It was the finality of simply stating, "I will never drink again and never change my mind." No ambiguity in this nor is faith involved.
This is a stretch for an analogy, but if someone told you if you never put your hand on the hot stove caldron you will not burn you hand on it, does it require faith to believe that? Will you question if that is a technique or method? No, it is simply a suggestion (statement of fact) that if you follow will be proven true. If you want to put your hand on the stove again to see if still burns, go for it. I know what will happen to me if I drink again. But I can only speak for myself when it comes to my experience with alcohol. No more testing required.
The idea of making a decision and abiding by that decision is entirely a personal choice. You either do or you don't. It is a commitment that does not require faith, for me anyway. It's black and white to use an expression. If one cannot see it as black and white ( gray) then one is looking for a way around it, holes.
As for technique or methodology, however one wishes to approach this can be entirely a personal choice. But the simplicity of it boils down to a battle of wills - I think. The "beast" or whatever you want to call it, our "addiction"?, is a very real thing. It is a matter of recognizing that "our addiction" still wants alcohol, our "self" does not. It is up to our "self" to deny our "addiction".
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The faith I speak about is the leap of faith to believe you can deny addiction , no matter what it is telling you.
Like not touching the hot stove I didn’t need faith to believe that cutting booze out my life would lead to a better life.
I just needed to stop listening to the AV telling me I would/could not actually do it.
IT almost had me convinced I was constitutionally unable to actually literally stop , for good, once and for all. Which in semi-self defense kind of way was seemingly believable , sort of, based on the amount of times I thought I should but just never got there, never made it stick. That almost seemed like evidence . Until I realized all it meant was that I never actually made the decision , not that I couldn’t make the decision , just that I hadn’t , until I did.
I’ve leapt , I know I will never drink again and never change my mind, it isn’t an article of faith in the sense of hoping for the outcome , I can guarantee the outcome. Everyone can.
Like not touching the hot stove I didn’t need faith to believe that cutting booze out my life would lead to a better life.
I just needed to stop listening to the AV telling me I would/could not actually do it.
IT almost had me convinced I was constitutionally unable to actually literally stop , for good, once and for all. Which in semi-self defense kind of way was seemingly believable , sort of, based on the amount of times I thought I should but just never got there, never made it stick. That almost seemed like evidence . Until I realized all it meant was that I never actually made the decision , not that I couldn’t make the decision , just that I hadn’t , until I did.
I’ve leapt , I know I will never drink again and never change my mind, it isn’t an article of faith in the sense of hoping for the outcome , I can guarantee the outcome. Everyone can.
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You don’t have to believe in whatever method you choose but you do have to suspend your disbelief and just practice it without waiting for any sense of prior certainty. Where would certainty in the method come from if not from your own experience of it?
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Originally Posted by AlericB
You don’t have to believe in whatever method you choose but you do have to suspend your disbelief and just practice it without waiting for any sense of prior certainty. Where would certainty in the method come from if not from your own experience of it?
For many years, I lived with another living creature, the “drunken me” and was intimate with its nature. I had a deep requirement of faith and hope for good fortune that nothing bad would happen each time I reveled in that wonderful deep pleasure all over again.
I knew I was totally responsible for the “drunken me”, and when things finally got bad enough, I turned on it and I killed it. I killed it with the plan “I will never drink again.” – 100% certainty. Like a rat I once trapped and drowned, I recognized some sorrow in me at the loss of an individual creature’s life. After killing the “drunken me”, that sense of grief diminished more gradually than for the rat, but even now, I recall the rat was just doing its thing.
Today, as I write this and try to shift into recalling that grief I had for the “drunken me”, I just can’t find it anywhere inside anymore. I can manufacture more sadness for having killed that rat, than I can for having killed the “drunken me”
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That's great. Not sure why you're quoting me though because you weren't addressing the point I made.
But re. your post:
My own experience is that I also needed, and still need, to apply the technique of recognising and separating from AV. I am 100% certain I will remain abstinent if I do this. Not so sure I will if I don't.
But re. your post:
Originally Posted by GerandTwine
I killed it with the plan “I will never drink again.” – 100% certainty.
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Originally Posted by AlericB
That's great. Not sure why you're quoting me though because you weren't addressing the point I made.
But re. your post:
My own experience is that I also needed, and still need, to apply the technique of recognising and separating from AV. I am 100% certain I will remain abstinent if I do this. Not so sure I will if I don't.
But re. your post:
My own experience is that I also needed, and still need, to apply the technique of recognising and separating from AV. I am 100% certain I will remain abstinent if I do this. Not so sure I will if I don't.
Both 'if's are AV , they suggest the possibility of changing your mind.
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dwtbd,
With respect, and I do respect your views, that's not true for me.
I have made a decision never to drink again (my BP). This makes it much easier, in fact effortless, for me to spot AV because it provides a plain backdrop against which AV stands out. But it is self-evidently true that if I recognise and separate from any thought that, if followed, will lead me to drink again (AV) using whatever method I choose to do this then I will remain abstinent.
That's how I interpret AVRT and how it's meaningful to me anyway.
I respect other's interpretations but, if they don't make sense to me - in particular, the view expressed here by certain members that making a BP is sufficient in itself to guarantee abstinence regardless of whether or not the method of recognising and separating from AV is carried out - then I will reject it as not being meaningful to me. If it is to someone else, then fine. We can only share from our personal experience. Claiming 'orthodoxy', again by these same members, never helps.
With respect, and I do respect your views, that's not true for me.
I have made a decision never to drink again (my BP). This makes it much easier, in fact effortless, for me to spot AV because it provides a plain backdrop against which AV stands out. But it is self-evidently true that if I recognise and separate from any thought that, if followed, will lead me to drink again (AV) using whatever method I choose to do this then I will remain abstinent.
That's how I interpret AVRT and how it's meaningful to me anyway.
I respect other's interpretations but, if they don't make sense to me - in particular, the view expressed here by certain members that making a BP is sufficient in itself to guarantee abstinence regardless of whether or not the method of recognising and separating from AV is carried out - then I will reject it as not being meaningful to me. If it is to someone else, then fine. We can only share from our personal experience. Claiming 'orthodoxy', again by these same members, never helps.
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine
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Correction to my last post to GerandTwine. I assumed the link was to the entire thread but actually to was to one of his posts so they were his own words. Most embarrassing. However, I will not be commenting on it because it does not address the points I have been making here.
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Originally Posted by AlericB
Perhaps you could make it easier to respond by saying in your words what you found in this thread that means something to you.
And, thus, it is meaningful to me that he has very likely ended not only his addiction, but also his recovery with his once-in-a-lifetime Big Plan. "I will never drink again."
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I will never rob a bank and I will never change my mind.
I will never commit murder and I will never change my mind.
I will never burn down a house and I will never change my mind.
I will never steal a car and I will never change my mind.
I will never abuse a woman and I will never change my mind.
I will never harm a child and I will never change my mind.
I will never [______________] and I will never change my mind.
I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.
Addiction is more than a "habit". But for the sake of argument let's say that it is just a habit. It takes about 2 months to change or develop a habit. One organization claims it takes 90 days, which is supported by science and by anecdotal evidence, and why the "90 in 90" meetings is ALWAYS recommended by rehabs and those in the "program". When one enters a rehab facility most of the time they are admitted to the detox unit. During this phase they are monitored by a medical staff and given medications to prevent harm from withdrawal effects - it can be fatal. Once one is over the withdrawal phase which for alcoholics is about a week, they are 'released' to the general population and start their indoctrination into "recovery". They are most times kept in a rehab for 28 days then released. Twenty-eight days is norm in the USA mostly because the insurance industry dictates this. After one is released from rehab - graduation day - they are given a list of meetings and told to attend 90 meetings in 90 days. And so it goes...
Now, for the sake of argument, if one is able to stay abstinent for 90 days, it is believed they will have no 'physical need' for alcohol. If one drinks beyond that time frame, it is clearly a personal decision. Recoveryism drills into to the minds of its indoctrinated that they are constantly at risk for the rest of their lives - one day away - from picking up that next drink. And are given very many ideas that mislead the newly sober person into to believing certain things about themselves that they are completely helpless to prevent it. blah-blah-blah.
Anyway, in the first 90 days, for the sake of argument, recognizing the AV is paramount to the success of the AVRT 'method'. Basically, ANY thought at all of drinking is the AV. It may take several months. For six months I wanted to drink - my AV wanted to drink. But I knew it was my AV. I took measures to prevent the AV from winning whether it was giving myself a "timeout" from an activity or changing my environment completely. These are techniques/methods to survive the battles with the AV. But the most important aspect of this was that I was able to assign my desire to have a drink to the AV. And I was able to separate the AV from my rational desire to not drink. In the beginning when this conflict arose I would just say to myself, "I will never drink again and I will never change my mind." Continuing to do this over time becomes second nature. And eventually the AV goes into hiding. Every once in a while the thought still crosses my mind, but it is immediately dismissed.
Addiction is very strong, our brain actually changes. Our brains can be repaired - unless it is an extreme case. This has been medically proven.
So when one decides to make a Big Plan, one must use whatever is at their disposal - for some it can be sheer willpower - to get through the first couple months. Beyond that period of breaking the habit, it becomes nothing more than recognizing the AV and squashing it. If one wishes to assign to it a method or technique, please by all means do that. The bottom line is to not lose the big picture or the simplicity of it.
I will never commit murder and I will never change my mind.
I will never burn down a house and I will never change my mind.
I will never steal a car and I will never change my mind.
I will never abuse a woman and I will never change my mind.
I will never harm a child and I will never change my mind.
I will never [______________] and I will never change my mind.
I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.
Addiction is more than a "habit". But for the sake of argument let's say that it is just a habit. It takes about 2 months to change or develop a habit. One organization claims it takes 90 days, which is supported by science and by anecdotal evidence, and why the "90 in 90" meetings is ALWAYS recommended by rehabs and those in the "program". When one enters a rehab facility most of the time they are admitted to the detox unit. During this phase they are monitored by a medical staff and given medications to prevent harm from withdrawal effects - it can be fatal. Once one is over the withdrawal phase which for alcoholics is about a week, they are 'released' to the general population and start their indoctrination into "recovery". They are most times kept in a rehab for 28 days then released. Twenty-eight days is norm in the USA mostly because the insurance industry dictates this. After one is released from rehab - graduation day - they are given a list of meetings and told to attend 90 meetings in 90 days. And so it goes...
Now, for the sake of argument, if one is able to stay abstinent for 90 days, it is believed they will have no 'physical need' for alcohol. If one drinks beyond that time frame, it is clearly a personal decision. Recoveryism drills into to the minds of its indoctrinated that they are constantly at risk for the rest of their lives - one day away - from picking up that next drink. And are given very many ideas that mislead the newly sober person into to believing certain things about themselves that they are completely helpless to prevent it. blah-blah-blah.
Anyway, in the first 90 days, for the sake of argument, recognizing the AV is paramount to the success of the AVRT 'method'. Basically, ANY thought at all of drinking is the AV. It may take several months. For six months I wanted to drink - my AV wanted to drink. But I knew it was my AV. I took measures to prevent the AV from winning whether it was giving myself a "timeout" from an activity or changing my environment completely. These are techniques/methods to survive the battles with the AV. But the most important aspect of this was that I was able to assign my desire to have a drink to the AV. And I was able to separate the AV from my rational desire to not drink. In the beginning when this conflict arose I would just say to myself, "I will never drink again and I will never change my mind." Continuing to do this over time becomes second nature. And eventually the AV goes into hiding. Every once in a while the thought still crosses my mind, but it is immediately dismissed.
Addiction is very strong, our brain actually changes. Our brains can be repaired - unless it is an extreme case. This has been medically proven.
So when one decides to make a Big Plan, one must use whatever is at their disposal - for some it can be sheer willpower - to get through the first couple months. Beyond that period of breaking the habit, it becomes nothing more than recognizing the AV and squashing it. If one wishes to assign to it a method or technique, please by all means do that. The bottom line is to not lose the big picture or the simplicity of it.
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine
And, thus, it is meaningful to me that he has very likely ended not only his addiction, but also his recovery with his once-in-a-lifetime Big Plan. "I will never drink again."
I don't think we're going to agree on this and I don't want this thread to be all about me. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I'm actually not certain of anything. Everything is problematic as far as I'm concerned. All we can do is our best I suppose and that's how I do my best with quitting drinking.
. I refer you to my popular thread entitled "What's my user name mean", something like that anyway.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
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I think the most important aspect of GT's above linked post, is the idea of a pledge, a pledge one makes to one's self , the veracity of which is self evident.
AVRT and its importance is to show that anything outside of the pledge ( and its 'internal' veracity) as it relates to abstinence is for lack of a better term , bunk. Anything relating to abstinence outside of "I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind" is AV (bunk).
A near century of cultural/institutionalized AV writ large has made it exceedingly difficult to be part of our culture and not be influenced by the collective AV , whether or not one is/was ever addicted.
Recovery is the practice of keeping 'yourself' from drinking, being recovered means you don't drink, ever. Yeah?
AVRT and its importance is to show that anything outside of the pledge ( and its 'internal' veracity) as it relates to abstinence is for lack of a better term , bunk. Anything relating to abstinence outside of "I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind" is AV (bunk).
A near century of cultural/institutionalized AV writ large has made it exceedingly difficult to be part of our culture and not be influenced by the collective AV , whether or not one is/was ever addicted.
Recovery is the practice of keeping 'yourself' from drinking, being recovered means you don't drink, ever. Yeah?
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Originally Posted by dwtbd
Recovery is the practice of keeping 'yourself' from drinking, being recovered means you don't drink, ever. Yeah?
Can I guarantee now that I won't be drinking next Friday at quarter past 8? No. Others may be able to make that guarantee for themselves but I can't for myself.
Can I guarantee now that I won't be drinking next Friday at quarter past 8 if, then , I have separated from any AV I may be having? Obviously yes.
Where we differ is that I see being recovered as a process and you don't. But I see it as a process not as one of recovering but of staying recovered. Where we agree is that, at every point in that process, I am recovered, not recovering.
Again, I am worried that we are making AVRT sound too obtuse for newcomers and it would be better not to start going round in circles.
quat
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AlericB
I hear you , and we all have to 'do' us , yeah ?
But the fact that we can change our minds, means we can decide to never change them. It isn't a contradiction of free will , more the expression thereof.
I hear you , and we all have to 'do' us , yeah ?
But the fact that we can change our minds, means we can decide to never change them. It isn't a contradiction of free will , more the expression thereof.
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