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What is a Big Plan

Old 10-10-2017, 02:55 PM
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What is a Big Plan

I have only just started looking at AVRT, and I really don't understand what I have to do, to get benefits from it. I have read about a Big Plan. Is that something like a step 4 list? I went to AA for years and to be fair never felt much benefit from it. I always relapsed.

How does one start doing AVRT? What is it!!
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:22 PM
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https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...iscussion.html (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion)


" I will never drink again , and I will never change my mind" <--- Big Plan

There great threads here in Secular Connections here is the start of one
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Old 10-14-2017, 05:26 AM
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AVRT is learning to recognize the self talk that happens surrounding one's addiction. I was just reading The Small Book by Jack Trimpey who wrote Rational Recovery - The New Cure (highly recommended if you are interested in AVRT) and he talked about doing something similar to a step 4, but instead of a moral inventory, one should do a self talk inventory. What are the thoughts that go through my mind before I pick up a drink or go buy some? What do I believe about why I am addicted? What do I tell myself about why I haven't quit even though I know I need to?

Personally I think that is a far more effective and powerful inventory to take regarding one's addiction! Instead of focusing on what a bad person one must be for getting addicted, one focuses on the thought processes that keep one addicted.
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:41 PM
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Hi Shauninspain - Welcome to you. Did you take a look at this post? It might be helpful to take a look. https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ined-long.html

One of the last posts in the thread above is a link to all the threads about AVRT and Rational Recovery. Lots of information there for you.

And I hope to see you around here because there is a lot of support here for you.
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Old 10-15-2017, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by zenchaser View Post
AVRT is learning to recognize the self talk that happens surrounding one's addiction. I was just reading The Small Book by Jack Trimpey who wrote Rational Recovery - The New Cure (highly recommended if you are interested in AVRT) and he talked about doing something similar to a step 4, but instead of a moral inventory, one should do a self talk inventory. What are the thoughts that go through my mind before I pick up a drink or go buy some? What do I believe about why I am addicted? What do I tell myself about why I haven't quit even though I know I need to?
The Small Book may have its merits, but it should be noted that the author himself now considers it deprecated and obsolete. The New Cure is not an update of TSB, but a replacement.

Although it sets forth a very early and rudimentary version of AVRT, it is grounded mostly on the Rational Emotive Therapy (RET) developed by Albert Ellis. In this context, addiction is viewed as an 'irrational belief', hence the self-talk inventory.

RET was not originally developed for addictions, as AVRT was, but was adapted to the task after the fact. AVRT actually contradicts most of the axioms of RET, and this is in large measure why SMART Recovery and Rational Recovery went their separate ways.

Notably, AVRT views the Beast as a rational entity, and therefore, its Addictive Voice is not an irrational belief. The Beast is rational because it is simply trying to survive, and it would be very irrational indeed for any living entity to not try to survive. The AV is a rational expression of a valid (real!) survival drive.

As such, the Addictive Voice is indisputable.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
The Small Book may have its merits, but it should be noted that the author himself now considers it deprecated and obsolete. The New Cure is not an update of TSB, but a replacement.

Although it sets forth a very early and rudimentary version of AVRT, it is grounded mostly on the Rational Emotive Therapy (RET) developed by Albert Ellis...RET was not originally developed for addictions, as AVRT was, but was adapted to the task after the fact. AVRT actually contradicts most of the axioms of RET.
My understanding is that it was eventually decided that never-addicted psychologists were clueless about quitting drinking and that the answer was not in the inner workings of the mind, but rather, the inner workings of the survival drive. This conclusion was very disappointing to various Beasts, who loved the opt-out clauses psycho-babble confers upon their drinking.
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Old 10-15-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
The Small Book may have its merits, but it should be noted that the author himself now considers it deprecated and obsolete. The New Cure is not an update of TSB, but a replacement.

Although it sets forth a very early and rudimentary version of AVRT, it is grounded mostly on the Rational Emotive Therapy (RET) developed by Albert Ellis. In this context, addiction is viewed as an 'irrational belief', hence the self-talk inventory.

RET was not originally developed for addictions, as AVRT was, but was adapted to the task after the fact. AVRT actually contradicts most of the axioms of RET, and this is in large measure why SMART Recovery and Rational Recovery went their separate ways.

Notably, AVRT views the Beast as a rational entity, and therefore, its Addictive Voice is not an irrational belief. The Beast is rational because it is simply trying to survive, and it would be very irrational indeed for any living entity to not try to survive. The AV is a rational expression of a valid (real!) survival drive.

As such, the Addictive Voice is indisputable.
So do you believe that taking a self talk inventory would have no merit? I think it would be helpful for learning how to recognize one's AV and irrational beliefs.
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Old 10-15-2017, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by zenchaser View Post
So do you believe that taking a self talk inventory would have no merit? I think it would be helpful for learning how to recognize one's AV and irrational beliefs.
I think Beasts love complex clinical talk such as "self inventory." And, "why pick up this drink? Let's delve into it, shall we, perhaps over a glass of brandy."

Or, "why am I addicted? Let us ponder the state of things."

AVRT answers all those questions with the common language of the self-recovered.

1. You drink because you allow your Beast to take control of your actions and love the feeling that ensues.

2. You are an addict only if you choose to name yourself so.

3. Again, you drink because you love the feeling that follows allowing your Beast to take control of your actions.

No academic, Poindexter, pipe-smoking, lay-on-my-couch theorists allowed in AVRT!
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Old 10-15-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post
I think Beasts love complex clinical talk such as "self inventory." And, "why pick up this drink? Let's delve into it, shall we, perhaps over a glass of brandy."

Or, "why am I addicted? Let us ponder the state of things."

AVRT answers all those questions with the common language of the self-recovered.

1. You drink because you allow your Beast to take control of your actions and love the feeling that ensues.

2. You are an addict only if you choose to name yourself so.

3. Again, you drink because you love the feeling that follows allowing your Beast to take control of your actions.

No academic, Poindexter, pipe-smoking, lay-on-my-couch theorists allowed in AVRT!
Haha! All true. Good point.
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:05 PM
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I love your no nonsense approach, Greenwood. Very refreshing in a sea of the Beast's AV, here on SR.
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
I love your no nonsense approach, Greenwood. Very refreshing in a sea of the Beast's AV, here on SR.
Thank you for saying so. I consider AVRT to be a valuable asset and encourage people to see it as it truly is, not as the Beast - personal or collective - wishes it were.
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Old 10-15-2017, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by zenchaser View Post
So do you believe that taking a self talk inventory would have no merit? I think it would be helpful for learning how to recognize one's AV and irrational beliefs.
It may have merit in other areas, but once again, the AV is not an irrational belief, so it has no merit in AV recognition. The AV is a rational, intelligent expression of a biological drive for pleasure that is understood by the limbic system as being necessary for survival. In AVRT, that part of the limbic system is the Beast.

AV ≠ Beast

Bark → Dog = AV → Beast

The AV is the 'bark' of the Beast.

Acting on the dictates of the Beast's AV may be irrational, just as it may be irrational to reach out and touch a pretty boy/girl when the thought comes to mind, but the thought itself is not irrational. The Big Plan is a chosen irrationality, and in AVRT, any thinking or feeling that contradicts the BP in any way, shape, or form is Addictive Voice.

Any further disputation of the Addictive Voice beyond the Big Plan is simply a negotiation -- a means to cut a deal with the Beast. I discussed much of this before elsewhere.
AVRT is not strictly dependent on the Structural Model, by the way. It is simply an alternative to the disease model, and provides a context for understanding addiction as a natural, normal function of the human body. Addiction is simply an adaptation, which causes unexpected, and often detrimental, side effects.

I would generally advise keeping AVRT separate from other approaches and conceptual foundations. Much of the strength of AVRT comes from its simplicity and purity of purpose. Everything in AVRT is clearly defined, and there is no esoteric 'deep stuff' involved.

That is not to say that other avenues to personal growth do not have their merits, however.
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:49 AM
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I am new to the forums and have never heard about this either. I like the approach.
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Old 10-21-2017, 08:24 AM
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As far as I know, there is no good evidence that AVRT nor anything else in Rational Recovery works well if at all as part of a substance abuse treatment program. This is despite the fact that AVRT has been around for decades.

I wonder if there are any rigorous studies or, better yet, metastudies, which address the action of AVRT. I suspect not, though. I get the impression that most addiction treatments are difficult to evaluate in their effectiveness.

But who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. I'm still very new to this substance abuse treatment thing.

EDIT: By the way, the "big plan" is distinct from AVRT. It is simply the plan to stay sober for the rest of your life. This is contrasted with the 1-day-at-a-time approach in AA.
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Old 10-21-2017, 09:23 AM
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Vinepest, with respect, your post is full of falsehoods regarding AVRT, so I don't quite understand why you posted. Most folks that post here are seeking information or clarification. To that end, should you also have an open mind and wish to educate yourself (instead of making presumptions and guessing) there are myriad threads regarding RR/AVRT here in Secular Connections.
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Old 10-21-2017, 09:38 AM
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If you don't plan to remain abstinent for the rest of your life , aren't you planning on drinking/using again , at some point/time?
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Old 10-21-2017, 09:54 AM
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This forum is for the discussion of AVRT and other self-recovery efforts as a means of quitting addictive behavior. Why is criticism of AVRT being allowed to be posted here? If one of us pointed out the dismal success rates of 12-step recovery, we would be censored or banned.
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
If you don't plan to remain abstinent for the rest of your life , aren't you planning on drinking/using again , at some point/time?
No. For example, I currently have no plans to visit Paris, but that doesn't mean I plan to avoid visiting Paris for the rest of my life.

Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
Vinepest, with respect, your post is full of falsehoods regarding AVRT, so I don't quite understand why you posted. Most folks that post here are seeking information or clarification. To that end, should you also have an open mind and wish to educate yourself (instead of making presumptions and guessing) there are myriad threads regarding RR/AVRT here in Secular Connections.
I posted because I'm interested in learning more about the evidence for (or against) AVRT and other addiction therapies. As I made clear in my post above, I don't know very much about it, and so it would be nice if others who know more than I do could comment on what kind of evidence exists, or if perhaps I am correct in my suspicions that there is no good evidence.

You seem to adamantly disagree with my suspicions, so maybe you would like to elaborate.
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:04 AM
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Criticizing AVRT, registered trade notwithstanding, is AV cultural and individually.
The best way to handle AV is drag it out into the light of day and then throughly dismiss it.
I suppose it's just another burden we must bear or bare , lol.
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by vinepest View Post
No. For example, I currently have no plans to visit Paris, but that doesn't mean I plan to avoid visiting Paris for the rest of my life.
That actually proves my point. If you don't plan to never visit Paris , you may.
If you planned to never set foot in Paris ,ever, what could stop you from achieving your goal?
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