vinepest

Well, a person might visit Paris whether they plan to do so, plan never to do so, or have no plans either way. So, I guess I'm not sure what you're getting at, here.

The principal idea behind 1-day-at-a-time, it seems to me, is that we shouldn't overburden ourselves by trying to look too far into the future. Of course, there are other potential benefits, too.

Then again, there may be potential drawbacks, and missed benefits from the so-called big plan. The latter might quash hidden plans to use drugs/alcohol in the future, for instance. It might also motivate a person by instilling in them a sense of grandeur in their goal for sobriety. Etc.

Fusion

I'm sorry Vinepest, if you are genuine. But I disagree with your stance. It's clear from your post (containing criticisms and assumptions and no questions) that you didn't post to learn: you posted to criticise.

Wholesome

No matter what kind of criticisms someone tries to make about AVRT it won't shake my belief that I can decide for myself to quit now and forever on my own without divine intervention from above. No faith healing here. How can one prove that the miracle of AA has happened? Prove that God has removed the desire.

vinepest

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then.

Don't get me wrong---I have my own biases and suspicions and, as with pretty much every active forum member here, I post in part to communicate them, and promote them. Who doesn't? But none of that happens to the exclusion of wanting to learn more about the evidence behind various treatment therapies, nor does it mean I'm being closed-minded. In fact, I thought I was pretty clear about having an open mind, saying explicitly that I might be wrong, that I was new to investigating this stuff, and that I am interested in knowing whether there are any rigorous scientific studies that address my concerns. And I'm disappointed that my interests in that area seem to have been overshadowed by the fact that I didn't express them in the form of a question.

But oh well. Not a big deal, I guess.

Fusion

Sorry I responded to the Vinepest post now. It's clear their intention, after the "dry drunk" was added to the tag line, so very sad and pitiful that they're posting here. I have nothing to prove, nothing to defend. I stopped drinking forever and am happy, joyous, content and free, after twenty years of addiction: due to AVRT. Vinepest, I hope you are too, if not, try another way.

dwtbd

Vinepest
Are you familiar with AVRT/RR 's view of substance abuse 'treatment' in general, i.e. That treatment in the usual current day sense is actually an impediment to quitting ?

vinepest

I recently read large portions of The Small Book, so, yes, I'm a little bit familiar with Trimpey's views on AA, at least. However, I don't recall him delving into other addiction treatment therapies, in that book. I do recall him criticizing the disease concept, though, which I guess might stand behind some other non-AA therapies. And to a great extent, I agree with his criticisms. AA is indeed highly religious in nature, and promoting the disease concept has the potential to encourage alcoholics to wallow in self-pity.

But that then raises the question, if the usual therapies don't work, then what does? Trimpey's answer is AVRT. I'm not sold on it, though, as I have learned to be very skeptical of such claims. Hence, my requirement for evidence.

As you have surely gathered from my generally negative tone, I'm a deep pessimist with regard to substance abuse treatment. I see very little of promise in today's medical scene (and still less outside it) with regard to addiction. There are some glimmers of hope: Methadone programs are remarkable, certainly, and I'm sure there are some other examples of genuinely effective therapies. I need to learn more, of course. But so far, the situation is looking pretty grim. I can't help but think that, for the most part, we're all pretty much on our own if we want to beat our addictions.

dwtbd

I'd agree we are on our own if we want to beat our addictions, how could it be otherwise , yeah?

What's your plan for future intoxication?

vinepest

I currently have no plans to drink or use, and I dearly hope my boneheaded future self doesn't decide otherwise. I have less than two months sober, so I'm still very much in the danger zone.

You?

Greenwood618

That is exactly what AVRT is. The small book is outdated. I suggest you study the concept further at the RR Website and via the latest book.

Fusion

Hi Vinepest, and welcome to Secular Connections on SR. Following your more recent posts, you do seem genuinely interested in exploring freedom from alcohol/drug addiction. Although I would still question the "dry drunk" reference. I was an AAer, so I'm sure if you've had exposure to it, you'll realise why it rankles. I was trapped in hell in AA - now I'm not!

vinepest

On the one hand, I'm a big fan of Ambrose Bierce. On the other hand, I'm a notorious critic of certain concepts popular in AA circles, including but not limited to the "dry drunk" concept. So, when that line popped into my head one day, I never forgot it. I put it in my signature because it strikes me as quite humorous. But comedy is a picky thing, and what one person finds funny another person may not.

EDIT: My username is also a Bierce reference.

AlericB

This has a different meaning to having a plan to never drink again. You also have no plans to visit Mars (I assume)

Fusion

I'm sorry, Vinepest, having just looked up Ambrose Bierce, I now understand that your tagline doesn't mean what I thought.....lengthy exposure to a certain support group and then freedom from it; plus freedom from addiction by another means, perhaps, renders me slightly cynical too. Thank you for introducing me to Ambrose's Devil's Dictionary, upon a brief perusal, it seems humorous to me.

dwtbd

I made a Big Plan, 'I will never drink again and never change my mind".
I've imbued myself with that sense of grandeur (around here accepted the mantle of badassery) that comes with realizing that self recovery is an event , renounced intoxication in general and alcohol consumption in particular. I just up and quit and plan to never start again
I've cut and run , dry
You can too

Wholesome

Me too! Best thing I've ever done for myself.

Anna

Please Remember:

12 Step Programs are off topic for this forum and posts discussing 12 Step Programs will be removed. Please use the Secular 12 Step Forum for positive topics on Secular 12 Step Recovery.

JeffreyAK

I agree at core, but I also think and have seen that most people benefit from support from other humans, including most of the people who insist they did it all on their own. We never hear from the people who truly did get sober by themselves, they are out there probably in large numbers, but they don't come to places like this, they don't read recovery books, they don't debate fine points of doctrine and dogma on forums or compare and contrast recovery approaches, etc. Nothing wrong with needing help, and for sure I failed utterly until I accepted help, but it had to be the right kind of help for me.

dwtbd

Everyone that has quit , did it ALL on their own.

All the support and help in the world would mean nothing if they never decided to quit.

Anything besides telling someone to Stop and Don't is hand holding while they stay 'stuck'.

AlericB

I think the decision to quit is a private act but getting to the point where you make the decision, or even to where you feel that you can make the decision, can require a lot of input, often over many years I would imagine. Of course, not all this input has to feel particularly caring at the time. There is a place for ultimatums sometimes.

AVRT is a educational tool that helps you see why you drink against your better judgement and how you can overcome this. It's aim may be Stop and Don't but there is a learning curve involved and it can't just be reduced down to this.