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I am not my Beast. I was talking with a friend of mine and she said that she is an addict so whatever she does, she does it in an addictive way, whether it be food or tv or substances, and it struck me as what a powerful statement that is. To identify as an addict. I no longer do that, I don't say "I'm an alcoholic." I say, "I drank alcoholically." I think that's really important. This friend of mine has never drank in an alcoholic way and smokes a bit of pot occasionally, no other drugs. Yet because of past drug use she still calls herself an addict. It makes me wonder if that's why she thinks she uses food or tv in an unhealthy way, if by telling herself that she is an addict she then acts in an addictive way. In my own story, having gotten sober using AVRT, I am no longer my Beast, I no longer listen to my AV, which would love for me to be an addict for life. I think this way of thinking is a real hindrance to recovery, to label oneself as an addict. Once and addict, always and addict. It leaves the door forever open to more use because it suggests that it never really ended. I tried to explain to her how that thought and belief is her Addictive Voice, hopefully I was able to help her start to challenge those thoughts. The belief that I am not my Beast and that I have returned to my original unaddicted state is the most powerful part of AVRT and where the true freedom lies. I am not my addiction. It's such a different philosophy from the main stream recovery movement. |
Once and addict, always and addict. It leaves the door forever open to more use because it suggests that it never really ended. for me, it works the opposite way: once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic is exactly the lock on the door, so to speak. |
I agree, Zen. I used to use the old "addictive personality" as a catch-all for all my poor choices and impulsive behavior. Now I just call them "poor choices and impulsive behavior" and address them as necessary. |
I am not my thoughts. |
It just seems like such a huge AV trap to me, if once you are an addict you are an addict forevermore, then you can never be fully recovered because you can never not be an addict. So in that line of thinking, you are in perpetual recovery. At any time it could start back up again because you were always addicted, even when you weren't using. It's a very circular weird logic. It bothers me that my oldest bestest friend believes that about herself. And she's not alone, that's a common belief system among former drinkers and drug users. I know that when I was actively partying it was totally part of my identity. That was who I was, I was a party girl. But now that I've decided to quit I choose to shed that identity like an old skin. I don't intend to go through the rest of my life as a sober person telling people, including myself, that I am an addict/ alcoholic. I'll be honest though, during this conversation I did question myself. I'm guilty of binge watching tv and stuffing my face with food sometimes. I wondered, do I do that because I'm an addict too? Is that part of my sickness? Then I thought no. That's just me being lazy lol. Just poor choices like soberlicious said. |
I agree, not that you're lazy but about choices :) Labels can sometimes be useful e.g. if we can label, or name, a thought as "AV" then we stand a better chance of letting go of the thought rather than spinning a commentary about the thought which is what we usually do when we are in addiction. But is it ever a good idea to apply labels to ourselves seeing that they are never who we really are? They are a bit like clothes in that sense and the extent to which we believe a label like "I am an addict" we are believing something that isn't true and that will prevent us from moving on. |
Originally Posted by fini
(Post 6607723)
Originally Posted by zenchaser
(Post 6607601)
Once and addict, always and addict. It leaves the door forever open to more use because it suggests that it never really ended. The Addictive Voice is concealing the Beast's existence, by taking control of the pronoun 'I', and then fusing its identity with that of its host. Remember, AVRT is not an "I can't drink" model, requiring 'acceptance' of a new self-identity as someone who presumably can't drink. AVRT identifies "I can't drink" as the Addictive Voice itself, implying that one might certainly drink, if only one could get away with it. I can't drink = I would drink if I could. |
This is one of the big problems with traditional recovery systems, IMO. When I quit, I quit. I meant it, it was solidly in my head and nothing was going to make me change that. Nothing. So when I went to meetings and had to call myself an alcoholic it rubbed me the wrong way. But you can't go to meetings and not say that, so there's that. That basically took meetings off the table for me. However, I can look back at my past and see addictive behavior that I don't want to repeat so I have to be mindful to not start because my own past behavior shows that I cannot control with 100% accuracy what will happen if/when I pick up a drink. I know that I have addictive behavior around certain things, and alcohol is one of those things. So are certain snack foods. I know if I buy them, I'll eat the whole dang package within hours. But I don't tell myself I'm a snack food addict, because I know I can buy them or not and even if I eat the whole pack, I'm none the worse for wear. "Addict/alcoholic" is a socially and culturally loaded term. In my mind I know sooner or later the wheels will come off with alcohol in my system. I don't have to use the words to know that. |
I was. |
Me too. I fell on my knees at the altar of my Beast for far, far too long, aided and abetted by the recovery group movement, the concept of powerlessness and one day at a time. No longer. Now, I am not my Beast. It's no longer in control. I am in control and I no longer drink, no matter what. Freedom from addiction. Why did nobody teach this? |
Originally Posted by Tatsy
(Post 6608581)
Me too. I fell on my knees at the altar of my Beast for far, far too long, aided and abetted by the recovery group movement, the concept of powerlessness and one day at a time. No longer. Now, I am not my Beast. It's no longer in control. I am in control and I no longer drink, no matter what. Freedom from addiction. Why did nobody teach this? I was a addicted to nicotine, but quit smoking without any aids. I don't call myself a nicotine addict in recovery. I'm a non smoker. I don't identify as an alcoholic - never have. I'm a non drinker. I also want to add that I too have to be careful what foods I bring into the house because I do binge eat and I also binge watch TV. Now, although binge eating food is not a great thing to do for various reasons, at least it doesn't make me do stupid things. But, I know if I buy a bag of cookies, I will eat them all at one time - same for a jar of peanut butter. So, with that in mind, I don't keep those kind of items in my house. I find refraining from eating decadent foods way harder than not drinking. I have booze in my house (for guests) - it's been sitting here since the day I quit drinking and I never think about it. It doesn't call to me - but put a cheesecake in my house and that thing will yell at me until I eat it. CF CF |
I view it as a medical condition, addiction = chemical dependency. Stop the chemical intake and you end the dependency (though it takes time, lots of documentation on the brain function changes that occur under chemical dependency, that take months or maybe years to fully reverse), so the notion that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, makes no sense to me. If someone wants to carry that cross, that's his or her choice, but it is a choice. Predisposition to becoming an addict in other areas, I dunno. I've heard people say similar things, "I have an addictive personality", but I don't know what that really means to them. I do know for sure that if I were to drink again, I'd quickly become an addict again, so there's something there even in the brains of people who stopped being addicts many years ago. Perhaps that's what people really mean when they say "I'm an alcoholic", that they would become addicts again if they drank. I don't know, I don't like labels, myself. |
My food and tv binging were way worse back when I was drinking. I wasted too much of my life laid up on the couch recovering from hangovers. I am fairly certain though that I have a sugar AV since quitting. My thought patterns aren't that different when I indulge in my daily chocolate bar. I tell myself, it's not that bad, everyone deserves at least one vice, it's just chocolate and it tastes so good! It's definitely lighting up those same reward centers in my brain, the difference is that there is no stigma of having an incurable disease that requires some kind of treatment. Admittedly, sugar isn't having the kind of destructive impact on my life that drinking did, the only down side is that I'm not losing the kind of weight I would be with all the exercising I've been doing, and I feel guilty about it, I'm never happy with myself after I've eaten it lol. I'm going to have to address my sugar Beast one day soon. |
Maybe it's the same mechanism. We haven't evolved a way to cope with the intense pleasure of artificial foods such as ice cream and so it can spawn a misdirected survival drive in the same way that drink/drugs can. Or perhaps the sugar Beast is just our old friend wearing a different hat - a sugar rush may not be it's first choice of buzz but it's something at least. Perhaps a purist would say that there's also a 'fit Beast' because of the buzz from exercise - the runners high for example. The body probably isn't meant to be athletically fit. But just as there's 'good' selfishness, such as assertiveness and a proper level of self-regard and self-care, as well as 'bad' selfishness, perhaps there's also a good buzz as well as a bad. |
AlericB You bring up interesting points. I'd suggest that 'evolution' has ' provided ' us a mechanism in what we call the neocortex. Although with all things scientific no matter how advanced our understanding at any current moment , 'we' are sort of just scratching the surface , yeah ? Thanks to the many functions of the neocortex we have philosophy , a guide to action that can assist us even in the midst of bewilderment, eh? :) We can vary the scope of any 'philosophy' , set principles and aim to adhere to them . As long as I keep the caveat that all my philosophies need to have their principles amenable to new facts, I will have a better chance of success :) For me , my alcohol philo is "Don't" :) with the proviso that my AV will always make it more complicated, I have yet to find a new fact that would alter following the principle of my philo "Don't" still covers IT :) |
Agreed. "Don't" is the simplest recovery model that answers all questions posed by addiction. And if it sometimes seems too simple to be true it may help to remember that simplicity equates to elegance and beauty in science and so we also have an elegant and beautiful model as well :) |
I like how our addiction is called the Beast, we are just animals, smart monkeys, and all animals are driven by their instincts, our brains are wired to do things that feel good. But since we are really smart monkeys we can story tell and predict outcomes and learn from our mistakes and teach and evolve from our experiences, we are more than just beasts. We've created these intricate stories and called them religions to help us reign in our carnal desires, same thing with laws and justice. As a species we tame the beasts within us to not let our desires rule us. But at the same time we've got everything we could want at our fingertips, food, booze, drugs, sex, money, power, material possessions and those things make our brains feel GOOD. The world has changed so quickly that our brains have not adapted, my dad had an outhouse and a black and white tv as a kid. One generation and later and look at the world, it's crazy. What I've really been learning lately is self discipline, I think most of us were taught through punishment, break the law, get punished, sin, go to hell, get drunk, suffer an hangover, eat the chocolate, be fat. Self discipline isn't about fear of punishment, it's about doing the right thing for the greater reward, whatever that might be. |
Originally Posted by AlericB
(Post 6609147)
Maybe it's the same mechanism. We haven't evolved a way to cope with the intense pleasure of artificial foods such as ice cream and so it can spawn a misdirected survival drive in the same way that drink/drugs can. Although this book is aimed at men (apparently because the author thought woman were more amenable to 'love the inner child' and wouldn't appreciate 'demonising' the urge/compulsion to overeat/binge) I found it useful in curbing my eating excesses. It's a free ebook on kindle and free on his website, together with other material, if you provide an email address, by Glen Livingston entitled "Never Binge Again". It is AVRT, with reworking, because of course, we wouldn't want to never eat, but he does recommend RR/AVRT for stopping drinking. He uses the "Pig" for the desire to overeat/eat the wrong foods and "Pigsqueal" as the Pig's AV. He states the Pig is powerless, you are its master and to disempower it you set a food plan, with food categories of 'always, never, sometimes and conditional'. For the first six months of sobriety, I put on weight. Since applying Glen's suggestions, I've lost almost 3 stone, and believe me, I'm not on a 'diet' I'm just aware of my 'Pig' and ignore its squeals, when it seeks foods which contravene my eating rules. Edited to add: cross posted with Zen - fantastic, insightful post! |
I count myself as one of Aristotle's rational animals, with a capacity for morality just not the guarantee :) ( workin on it , workin on it ) |
Congrats on losing all the weight Tatsy! It's easy to gain and hard to lose, the exact opposite of money which is hard to earn and easy to spend lol. I've considered making a Big Plan for chocolate but I hesitate because I'd still like to be able to have some sometimes, just not every day. That's great for you though, you must feel way better. I've lost about 15 lbs and I feel better and fitter. I gave up meat and I have made a Big Plan about that, not because I was addicted but because I've made a choice not to be a part of how cruel and wrong it is for the animals and how destructive it is to the environment. I think it's bad karma and it made me think of all that fear and suffering the animals go though and we are eating that and then we wonder why there's so much mental illness and depression and disease. |
Zen, using Glen's book, I haven't given up chocolate, but placed it in the conditional category. So, I'm on a self-improvement excercise, get fit! I set daily targets for physical activity with my Fitbit and if I achieve it, then, and only then, can I eat chocolate, at a pre-set amount. It's akin to your earlier post regarding self-discipline, which I believe is central to addiction stoppage. Last century, addictive beliefs seems to have turned on its head, when compared with the previous thousands of years understanding, all, in my opinion, due to someone's interpretation of Buchmanism, to the detriment of society, and us individually. |
I found this through a google search of Buchmanism. Ideas and people like this are why I am and always will be non-religion. It makes me grateful to live in a country where church and state have been separated so yawhoo's like Buchman can't try to actually make their weird ideologies a reality for the masses. The basic tenet of MRA is that the reformation of the world can only be achieved by creating a moral and spiritual force, by convincing all men of the necessity of absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. As helps to the practice of these cardinal virtues and to the further development of their moral life, the members of MRA engage in the exercises of sharing, surrender, substitution, and guidance. It is the last practice in particular that is of interest in an evaluation of this group. Many leaders, Buchman states, are convinced that the world needs a moral and spiritual awakening, and they put their case in striking phrases. But that is only words. The problem facing men is how to do it. To solve this difficulty Buchman turns to God: Now I find when we don’t know how, God will show us if we are willing. When man listens, God speaks. When man obeys, God acts. The secret is God-control. We are not out to tell God. We are out to let God tell us. And He will tell us. The lesson the world most needs is the art of listening to God. [2] Listening to God is the heart of MRA. As a program of spiritual reformation, it must be performed according to protocol. Everyone must set aside a "quiet time" of fifteen minutes a day to listen to the voice of God. Although "anyone can hear the words of the Lord," it is also necessary to obey certain rules: The first rule is that we listen honestly for everything that may come—and if we are wise we write it down. The second rule is that we test the thoughts that come, to see which are from God. One test is the Bible. It is steeped in the experience through the centuries of men who have dared, under Divine guidance, to live experimentally with God. There, culminating in the life of Jesus Christ, we find the highest moral and spiritual challenge—complete honesty, purity, unselfishness, and love. Another excellent test is, "What do others say who also listen to God?" This is an unwritten law of fellowship. It is also an acid test of one’s commitment to God’s plan. No one can be wholly God-controlled who works alone. [3] Buchman is sure that he has this direct guidance from on high: In a revolution I went through not long ago, God gave me direct orders to stay in a place which the authorities had said was the most dangerous of all. I stayed. Others, who fled in search of safety, nearly lost their lives. My friend and I were perfectly safe. [4] The results of his listening are clear. He finds that God’s thoughts become his thoughts. In fact, "direct messages come from the Mind of God to the mind of man—definite, direct, decisive. God speaks." [5] This gift is not limited to himself. Everyone can, in fact, must, receive his instruction directly from God: We accept as a commonplace a man’s voice carried by radio to the uttermost parts of the earth. Why not the voice of the living God as an active, creative force in every home, every business, every parliament? Men listen to a king when he speaks to his people over the air. Why not the King of Kings? He is alive, and constantly broadcasting. [6] Thus divine guidance must become the normal experience of ordinary men and women. "Any man," says Buchman, "can pick up divine messages if he will put his receiving set in order. Definite, accurate, adequate information can come from the Mind of God to the minds of men." [7] Receiving this communication from God to begin a life governed by absolute honesty, purity, unselfishness, and love is only the first step. It is the reform of self which must come before anything else can be accomplished. But the aim of MRA is more comprehensive. Buchman envisages the change not only of individuals, but, through them, of the entire human race: Wherever I go people say one thing: "If only so-and-so would be changed!" You probably thought of the very person. Or you probably thought of five persons. Well, think of five persons changed. Think of nations changed. Is that the answer? The world is looking for an answer, and, by the Grace of God, there is an answer. But be clear on this point, the answer is not in any man or any group of men. The answer rests in the living God. It rests in a God-controlled person. It rests in a God-controlled nation. It rests in God-controlled supernationalism. [8] Individual change of hearts leading to the reformation of the world is the plan and purpose of MRA. Moral Rearmament, therefore, is not a new organization which prescribes allegiance to a system of truths or precepts, but avowedly is only a means of deepening the truths which every man must hold. It is neither a church nor a religious sect. There are no dogmas to profess; no rites to practice. MRA exists only to change the lives of men, to make zealous reformers out of sinners, who still remain members of their individual churches. "Catholic, Jew and Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Confucianists—all find they can change, where needed, and travel along this good road together." |
Morality was the main factor in my decision to stop drinking because of the harm I was doing to myself and others. This does fit in with all the world religions quite well because they all counsel self-control and warn against hedonistic pleasure and so can provide the initial motivation to stop. I needed an absolute, cast-iron guaranteed way to stop drinking which ultimately meant that I had to rely on my myself. and relying on any external help would have meant an indirection and dependence that would not have worked for me. But I think this is still compatible with mainstream religions because, in their best representations, they all talk about taking self-responsibility for our own actions. I agree with you though that religion is often portrayed in ways that detracts from personal responsibility as if it were something that's old-fashioned and of no contemporary value. |
That's the reason I stopped too Aleric. Drinking changed me into someone who I didn't like and made my act in ways that I was ashamed of. I was hurting those who are the most dear to me. I also had to have my commitment come from within. If I put any stipulations on it then my mind would soon find a way to wiggle out of them, I know because I tried. I am a Godless heathen though and have no faith so that was never an option. Sometimes I wonder about it, consciousness and the universe are awe inspiring, I've just never looked for answers in a church or the bible. I'd rather geek out on documentaries about science. Who knows though? Certainly not me, one day I'll find out when my time comes. AVRT does work for anyone and everyone though, regardless of their beliefs or lack of. I'm glad I found something where the answer required having faith in my ability to rescue myself. |
When I was reading this post I had no idea what AVRT meant, I honestly thought it was another acronym used on social media. I don't do any type of social media so I never know lol. Anyway, I googled it and got to a web page that listed 16-rules maybe? I wouldn't necessarily look at them as suggestions because they seem that whoever came up with this program looks at it pretty factual (just like many recovery based suggestions) I imagine the young man named Dax who says he has gone to a place where addiction is completely cured. Hallelujuah! I always wonder, if they "cure my addiction" can I go tie one off after and not face any problems nor consequences? Who knows, I sure do not want to test it out... Anyway, forgive me I tend to drift off when writing. So I found this definition of AVRT-AVRT-based recovery is an immediate, uncomplicated, private event, and is not a long, melodramatic process of gradual self-improvement. As such, AVRT® is the crown jewel of addiction recovery. My whole life has always been melodramatic with no self-improvement. That is not until I found AA. I told myself over and over again that I could beat it, that I am not going to be addicted to drugs and alcohol anymore. Tomorrow I shall be free and things will be different. It never ever worked, ever. A good ole' "whole family done" and six months jail time at least got me to admit I was powerless. POWERLESS- I must tell myself this because I am. Drugs/alcohol (and minor mental problems) will bring me down quicker than a shot to the dome. In reference to your friend- I tell myself every day that I am an addict. The second I forget is the second I will use. The second I think "I got this, I'm cured! is the second I use. Death is next for me....I don't negotiate my sobriety. But thank you for the info about the AVRT thing, I always like to hear all the different ways people recover. Congrats on being able to do it this way, I would love not to have to drudge my whole past out, make amends to people I have hurt but it is the only thing that worked for me! |
Hi Jessicamae. I would encourage you to learn more about AVRT. It's about more than just swearing off and declaring yourself cured. It's about mastering your mind and not allowing your thoughts or Addictive Voice to become a reality. I consider myself recovered and I am certain I will never take another drink. Why? Because I say so. I also don't negotiate about my sobriety. Period. If you can't put a stop to it and take your control back then who can? AVRT is a learned skill for taking back your control. Read around on here and ask questions, there are lots of really great threads about the technique and we all like to talk about it and help others who are interested. |
I always wonder, if they "cure my addiction" can I go tie one off after and not face any problems nor consequences? The cure Rational Recovery talks about is planned permanent abstinence. I will never drink again and I will never change my mind, no matter what. Any thought, feeling, or image contrary to that pledge is considered Addictive Voice and is to be ignored. That's kind of it in a nutshell. The trick is learning to scan and recognize those thoughts that are AV so they can be ignored. The idea is to see that voice as not YOU, but IT, IT being your addiction talking. The beauty is in the simplicity. |
Zenchaser- I was talking about this guy name Pax Prentiss Meet Pax Prentiss - CEO Of Passages Addiction Treatment Centers His commercials are sooo funny. Like I said, I love to learn and today I learned an alternate way people get better. I know many people who woke up one day and quit, I think that is great. Maybe I just need some extra help. I need that extra accountability, I love the fellowship of the meetings, I love that I found G.O.D= good orderly direction, my definition of God. About the control thing, I believe the only thing I am in control of us my reactions to things. I am not responsible for my addiction but I am responsible for my recovery. There were times where I would justify my using because I had a hard life or the world dealt me a bad hand. I thrived being a victim and honestly, I still put myself in that position. But yes, I try to ignore the voices that tell me it's OK this time to go get high, a beer would never lead to shooting up pills again lol. Keep it simple. As I read more about this there are many similarities between the two programs as well as differences. What fun would things be if we all did the same exact things? Thank you for your input and bringing this to my attention. Maybe I can use this with a sponsee I have, she thinks a lot like this. I think I will direct her to read about this tonight. |
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