I am not my Beast.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 170
It is directed at anyone with a purported knowledge of AVRT who says that drinking is for reasons other than obtaining intoxicated pleasure, and that he or she was unaware, after months or years, of the immoral nature of the self-indulgent, adolescent behavior therein. The post you refer me to is non responsive to the question.
In other words, later knowledge of AVRT don't get you an absolution for the behavior that preceded it.
In other words, later knowledge of AVRT don't get you an absolution for the behavior that preceded it.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 170
While you are doing so, think about this:
What possible reason in the whole wide innocent world would your Beast have for insisting as sincerely and kind heartedly as possible that, "You weren't so bad back then. You can look back and say it wasn't even your fault. You didn't know! So it wasn't so bad, just having a few beers or whatever. Loosen up a little, you are so serious."
What possible reason in the whole wide innocent world would your Beast have for insisting as sincerely and kind heartedly as possible that, "You weren't so bad back then. You can look back and say it wasn't even your fault. You didn't know! So it wasn't so bad, just having a few beers or whatever. Loosen up a little, you are so serious."
The subjects of morality and ethical behaviour are simply not susceptible of being pinned down in the way you would like. They are personal questions, not scientific ones, and cannot be answered in a way that would be accepted by everyone.
This is why they have been debated for thousands of years and will continue to be. If there was a view agreeable to everyone do you not think someone would have written it down by now?
This is why they have been debated for thousands of years and will continue to be. If there was a view agreeable to everyone do you not think someone would have written it down by now?
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 170
I am not interested in the history of philosophy or the great arc of humankind.
I am only interested in AVRT.
AVRT conclusively proves that drinking is for self pleasure and immoral when resulting in chronic drunkeness.
I am only interested in AVRT.
AVRT conclusively proves that drinking is for self pleasure and immoral when resulting in chronic drunkeness.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
The letter in the article touched me as both the child of an alcohol and as a mother who was an alcoholic. To this day I can feel my back go up and myself tense up the moment I hear in my mother's voice that she's been drinking. I revert back to being a kid in an instant, it brings an immediate emotional response from me. She changes as soon as the alcohol enters her system, her voice, her demeanor, her attitude, posture, everything changes. Her Beast takes over and there is a notable difference. And I grew up to be just like her. I know that my children have witnessed the same change come over me and lived with that same uncertainty of not knowing what they were coming home to. They lived with the same volatility and extremes. It causes me deep shame still to really think about. I still cringe and lament about what I've done. How could I have done that knowing what I know and having lived the way I lived?
To me AVRT is a quit drinking manual. As far as my morality when I was drinking, it was wrong and immoral, a sin even. I made mistakes without a doubt. The reasons for my alcohol dependency go deeper and and more complex that just labeling me and all others who get addicted as immoral. I believe there is a genetic factor, whatever that gene is, I've got it, from the very beginning I didn't drink "right". My sister on the other hand doesn't have it, her personality doesn't change with her first drink and she can leave it alone after one or two. We came out of the same parents and the same house.
To me AVRT is a quit drinking manual. As far as my morality when I was drinking, it was wrong and immoral, a sin even. I made mistakes without a doubt. The reasons for my alcohol dependency go deeper and and more complex that just labeling me and all others who get addicted as immoral. I believe there is a genetic factor, whatever that gene is, I've got it, from the very beginning I didn't drink "right". My sister on the other hand doesn't have it, her personality doesn't change with her first drink and she can leave it alone after one or two. We came out of the same parents and the same house.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 170
Thank you for the acknowledgement. Acknowledging the fundamental immorality - which requires no religious belief - of chronic drunkeness is a fundamental precept of AVRT.
There is no scientific consensus on a genetic basis for chronic alcohol consumption, as you and your sibling demonstrate.
There is no scientific consensus on a genetic basis for chronic alcohol consumption, as you and your sibling demonstrate.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Zen, time after time I'd tell my husband I'd stopped drinking. Years ago, he'd return home later than me, I'd have drank just a few by then (trying to pretend not to have). He'd ask me if I'd been drinking, I'd deny it, he'd say....."you have, I can hear it in your voice, you change when you drink". I'd later proceed to drink to oblivion. I was pure Beast. Years later, I proceeded to drink all day. No longer.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Greenwood, I drafted a lengthy reply to you, with your recent numerous posts quoted and my responses contained therein. But I'm not posting it, because the only reason I'm still here on SR is the hope that I might guide others towards a technique to stop drinking, for good. To engage in debates over my purported understanding of AVRT would serve no purpose, to that end. I will say though, that I was writing earlier, with the benefit of hindsight, I did think folks would understand that perspective.
As GerandTwine says, nobody but the self knows that a Big Plan is set in stone, that the person will never drink again and never change their mind. I know that my BP is inscribed in my core, in my heart, in my true and authentic self. My Beast may occasionally rattle its dummies or try to throw its toys out of its pram: to no avail as IT no longer has power over me.
As GerandTwine says, nobody but the self knows that a Big Plan is set in stone, that the person will never drink again and never change their mind. I know that my BP is inscribed in my core, in my heart, in my true and authentic self. My Beast may occasionally rattle its dummies or try to throw its toys out of its pram: to no avail as IT no longer has power over me.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
I find the whole nature vs nurture debate to be interesting. If my mother had gotten sober and not made me her drinking buddy as a teenager would I still have become dependant on alcohol? Do my children have the gene if there is one? Will the fact that I've quit make a difference in their choices regarding alcohol and drug use?
What about people who are adopted? I know a guy who's adopted from a very religious family so was raised by parents who were not drinkers but he's an alcoholic for sure. Was there alcoholism in his biological family history?
I know these questions don't matter much within the context of AVRT. And I'm not offering any of this up as excuses, but perhaps as explanations. My gut tells me that I inherited a disposition, vulnerability to alcoholism, just like I inherited my mother's green eyes. But there's no doubt that there was a social and family conditioning there as well. Children learn what they are taught.
What about people who are adopted? I know a guy who's adopted from a very religious family so was raised by parents who were not drinkers but he's an alcoholic for sure. Was there alcoholism in his biological family history?
I know these questions don't matter much within the context of AVRT. And I'm not offering any of this up as excuses, but perhaps as explanations. My gut tells me that I inherited a disposition, vulnerability to alcoholism, just like I inherited my mother's green eyes. But there's no doubt that there was a social and family conditioning there as well. Children learn what they are taught.
Quantum Uncertainty Principle of the Big Plan and Individual Certainty Principle of one's BigPlan
In AVRT the very best a Phormer Drunk can do is acquiesce to THE ultimatum from family and friends. "If you are ever again shown to be or have been drunk, our relationship is OVER, kaput, adios. Go your way, do your thing, and I will do mine."
And since the other side of the Quantum Uncertainty Principle of the Big Plan is the Individual Certainty Principle of the Big Plan, a Phormer Drunk who makes the Big Plan can remain completely confident and relaxed that those relationships that reached the crossroads of the ultimatum will continue with love and mutual care.
Well, that's a good point. Although we now know that we drink purely for pleasure, without that knowledge there is no intention to indulge in hedonism and so is there anything immoral in the behaviour? If we returned to drinking with what we know now of course there would be clear intention and so we would not deserve praise for any subsequent quitting.
I knew every single time that drinking some more was ALWAYS a challenge to stay out of trouble. For me it was ALWAYS an awareness that I was about to regain that wonderful deep pleasure, and it was worth whatever bad things I did, (up until that last bad drunk).
I do not understand how just learning about AVRT suddenly conceives an immaculate innocence from ingrained past intentions that led into reprehensible drunken behavior.
... I believe there is a genetic factor, whatever that gene is, I've got it, from the very beginning I didn't drink "right". My sister on the other hand doesn't have it, her personality doesn't change with her first drink and she can leave it alone after one or two. We came out of the same parents and the same house.
Agree/agreed.
I think it's more important anyway to focus on moving on. We should say sorry to those we have hurt, ask for their forgiveness and forgive ourselves. Forgiveness is not about forgetting, but about moving on. Self-forgiveness does not have to mean that we are going to gravitate towards drinking again as has been suggested above. It is a necessary part of healing.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,822
It is impossible to do wrong, without being morally responsible (.) If it were, doing 'right' would be a matter of happenstance.
Empathy and compassion have their place, but they become tools of the Beast if used for absolution, moral equivalency.
Getting falling down drunk is to put yourself and others in harm's way, no matter how many times one does it.
Empathy and compassion have their place, but they become tools of the Beast if used for absolution, moral equivalency.
Getting falling down drunk is to put yourself and others in harm's way, no matter how many times one does it.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)