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Old 10-07-2017, 07:05 PM   #161 (permalink)
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Demand creates supply.
Prohibition was wrong , not only because it was unconstitutional at first lol, but more because removing supply does little to stifle demand, which creates the opportunity for being supplied a la bootleggers.
The 'War on Drugs' is obviously just as ineffectual in curbing the rate of 'illicit drug' use.
Alcohol advertisements and marketers don't try to induce alcohol consumption in general , just in particular i.e. Their brand, responsibly of course
The makers of Dewars,just as example, would rather you not consume alcohol if you do not purchase their product. That would mean no market share for their competitors and lesser costs in their supply chain.
Alcohol and other intoxicants aren't the enemy, just the Thing that wants them and that enemy can be stopped in Its tracks even while sitting in a castle make of cocaine bricks and surrounded by a moat of bourbon.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:10 PM   #162 (permalink)
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I spent several Hours touring the fabulous 'Mob Museum' in Las Vegas. >$30 Million was spent rehabbing a 1930s-era Post Office downtown into a very well-researched Facility.

Part of one Floor dealt with Prohibition. At the peak, there were reportedly >200,000 Speak Easys in the U.S. where Bootleg Liquor was sold. Supply & Demand in action right there. The Displays also covered the odd alliances between Mobsters and Policemen/Judges being paid off to look the other way, and how John Q. Public wanted his Hootch no matter what. This struck me as deja vu all over again.

Here in Colorado, the Tax Revenues paid to the State on Pot Sales recently surpassed that from all Liquor Sales. I believe that's from Liquor Stores only, but won't swear to it. The point of the Article I read was to compare Liquor and Pot Store Outlets in somewhat of an *Apples to Apples* manner; not necessarily to include Taxes realized from Bar and Pub Liquor sales.
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Old 10-08-2017, 01:49 AM   #163 (permalink)
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I found this great quote from Abraham Lincoln:

"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man’s appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
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Old 10-08-2017, 02:01 AM   #164 (permalink)
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Yeah the guv is getting ready to legalize marijuana here in Canada. Where I live in Ontario it's going to be regulated and taxed to death. We're liberal about most things, unless it's something fun, then we're super super conservative. Come to Toronto! Have a good time, but not too good of a time. The way they are going to set it up isn't going to stop illegal sales, people are still going to be more willing to go see their buddy in his basement than go to these stores they are opening which will be a branch of our Liquor Control Board. That's why the war on drugs hasn't worked, it's just like prohibition, people can choose on their own whether on not they want to get high, but they don't like being told that they can't.
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When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
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Old 10-08-2017, 02:02 AM   #165 (permalink)
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That is a great quote Aleric!
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Men are more easily governed through their vices than through their virtues.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Give them bread and circuses and they will never revolt

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
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Old 10-08-2017, 02:36 AM   #166 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by zenchaser View Post
it's just like prohibition, people can choose on their own whether on not they want to get high, but they don't like being told that they can't.
And this has been true since the first act of prohibition in the Garden of Eden re. the apple. Allegedly!
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:20 PM   #167 (permalink)
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What do you peeps think about old drinking/partying stories? It was Thanksgiving weekend here so I've done some socializing this weekend and of course others have been tossing back some drinks, there's been some story telling. I used to be a real party girl so I have more than a few stories, it felt kind of weird telling them though now that I see myself as being all beast back then. And I can see the beast in other's when they are telling their stories. My way of thinking and my perception has changed so much but no one else sees these things through the lens of AVRT like I do so it's kind of weird having these conversations that used to seem so normal to me. I find myself wanting to tell people how I can see their beasts and hear their AV's haha but of course nobody wants to hear about that so I keep it to myself. Do any of you still tell those old stories or have you closed the door on all of it? I questioned myself while I was telling a story or two..... should I be cracking jokes and making light of how I used to party? Am I being my beast again by doing this?
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Men are more easily governed through their vices than through their virtues.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Give them bread and circuses and they will never revolt

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
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Old 10-09-2017, 11:56 PM   #168 (permalink)
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Interesting question.

As you say, we usually tell stories like this for their comedy value and gloss over any hurt or real embarrassment that was caused. Without sounding too pious,.in a sense we're dehumanising the effects of our drinking and an equivalent word in the paradigm of AVRT to dehumanisation would be 'reBeastification' it seems to me.
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Old 10-10-2017, 06:18 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Once I made my BP and fleshed out, turned to see my Beast and hear Its AV, I could also see others'.

Beastly is as beastly does.

I think there is an anecdote in RR TNC , a scene in a hospital room with a survivor of an auto accident and the interplay between his and his friends beast discussing and eventually joking about the crash, unmoralizing the cause of the crash .
Humor and self deprecation are good tools in trying to secure empathy and shrug off responsibility, and Beasts take full advantage of this when they meet in packs.
Half( or more)of the bs sessions with 'drinking buddies' is reharshing old stories of drunkenness while priming up for new ones.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:51 AM   #170 (permalink)
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Beast-a-logs, would perhaps light up those old neural networks, rattling the Beast's cage and provide it with a smidgen of hope.

I never saw the point in rehashing drinkalogs. That part of my life is behind me and to reflect upon it, would only serve to raise shame, embarrassment and regret and I have no use for those adverse emotions in my sober life. I've forgiven myself and moved on, because there was no point in self-flagellating and defeating myself. I can't rewrite history, but I can play a positive part in shaping my future.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:43 AM   #171 (permalink)
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Sad to say but it's my family who brings my Beast back out. They're all crazy! Haha. Especially my mom, who is ground zero for my past drug and alcohol use, she just loves to tell stories about how bad we all were. Her saying that she says all the time is, drugs are bad but they sure are fun! To be sober in my family is to be the odd one out. A mother is such an influential relationship so to have one who constantly encouraged partying and drug use is a bit of head trip. Thankfully I only have to do these family get togethers a few times a year. My friends are more supportive or if they are not I can disengage and set boundaries in a different way than I can with my family. Family dynamics and roles can be really hard to break out of, that sh*t gets ingrained into you, it's so easy to fall back into. Back when I could get triggered, I'm kind of immune to it now, there's a barrier with AVRT that I didn't have before, but back when I didn't have that my mother was a HUGE trigger. My mom was a brain cue to get ready cuz the party was on! It's twisted but that was part of our bond. Sigh.
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Men are more easily governed through their vices than through their virtues.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Give them bread and circuses and they will never revolt

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:14 AM   #172 (permalink)
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Same with me really and it was quite painful because I was cast into the role of parent to my parents rather than remaining their child.

It may not be rational as an adult to feel abandoned by your parents but emotions don't work that way. And because of their drinking they had issues expressing emotions which probably caused prior feelings of abandonment.

I tried discussing their alcohol problem on occasions and always found it quite stressful. I was punished emotionally for doing so even though it was out of concern for them and I was made to feel that the issue was with me being 'too sensitive' not with their drinking.

I feel there's a positive to all this though because I think it's made me more emphatic towards others and animals.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:34 AM   #173 (permalink)
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I have been accused by pretty much every single man I've been in a relationship with of being too independent and cold. The first few times I was defensive about it and kind of hurt but the last few times I just thought, oh here we go again! They are right though and I know why, growing up the way I did I learned that I could only depend on myself and to not expect for my needs to be met. So it's not surprising that as an adult I have a hard time meeting other peoples emotional needs and depending on them. It makes me uncomfortable and I see it as a sign of weakness in others. My mother largely ignored me until I was old enough to become her drinking buddy, I never felt close to her or heard by her until I started drinking and getting high with her.

I'm just glad that I'm breaking the cycle with the family that I've created. I'm modeling that it's possible to change and do better and try to redeem myself. We are in counseling so my boys can talk about this stuff and I'm trying to be more emotionally available to them, as a drinker I was not, just like my mother wasn't. The only thing is that I wish I'd done this sooner.


I tried discussing their alcohol problem on occasions and always found it quite stressful. I was punished emotionally for doing so even though it was out of concern for them and I was made to feel that the issue was with me being 'too sensitive' not with their drinking.


Knowing what you know now about AVRT, do you think that you were really talking to their Beasts who didn't like being challenged about the addiction? I know my oldest son called me out when I was drunk and I did not react well at the time. Ultimately though, that was the reason for me quitting, but I knew about AVRT and I knew that he had tangled with my Beast and the real me thought that was really f*cked up and inspired me to get it together and woman up.
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Men are more easily governed through their vices than through their virtues.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Give them bread and circuses and they will never revolt

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:36 PM   #174 (permalink)
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Yes, I think I was talking to their Beasts. I think they were so identified with their thoughts and feelings about drinking that they saw them not as thoughts and feelings but as parts of themselves, of who they really are. And so they perceived my questioning of their drinking as an attack and threat to their very existence, actually their Beast's existence, I suppose. Pretty f*cked up as you say sadly.
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Old 10-18-2017, 01:22 AM   #175 (permalink)
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On this subject, here's a link to a letter I read on the Guardian a couple of weeks back. Amongst other things it does affirm the AVRT view that relatives of the formerly addicted need and deserve the absolute guarantee of permanent and secure abstinence: The letter you always wanted to write
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Old 10-18-2017, 06:52 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Gulp, Aleric, reading that letter saddens me. It brought to mind what I put my family through, by allowing my Beast to run the show. For allowing my Beast's best thinking to manipulate me. For allowing my Beast to shout down (with thoughts, feelings, urges and cravings) the ethics of my true self, the authentic conscious, rational me.

Once I stopped drinking forever, my family were initially sceptical, being immersed in one day at a time, programs, never say never. But when I showed them the science behind AVRT, they understood and believed that I was done with drinking.

And the more I read (I'm following a 'live like a Stoic for a week' course presently), the more I understand Jack Trimpey, when he said he simply pulled together the method by which people have been stopping drinking, effectively, for eons.
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:55 AM   #177 (permalink)
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The letter certainly portrays the anguish intimates endure.

However, I am somewhat ambivalent about such matters. Not sure it is valid or helpful to express pride and gratitude to people for not engaging in immoral behavior.

Of course, most drunks and former drunks don't believe that. They claim to be victims of a disease that no credible medical authority classifies as a disease.

But I guess it makes them feel better.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:17 AM   #178 (permalink)
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However, I am somewhat ambivalent about such matters. Not sure it is valid or helpful to express pride and gratitude to people for not engaging in immoral behavior.

Of course, most drunks and former drunks don't believe that. They claim to be victims of a disease that no credible medical authority classifies as a disease.
My family are proud of me, because I broke out of the currently established, and prevailing, societally ingrained, pattern of learned powerlessness/helplessness over imbibing alcohol, once the physical/mental addiction sets in. They're very grateful too, for SR and the Rational Recovery founder.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:26 AM   #179 (permalink)
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Well, that's a good point. Although we now know that we drink purely for pleasure, without that knowledge there is no intention to indulge in hedonism and so is there anything immoral in the behaviour? If we returned to drinking with what we know now of course there would be clear intention and so we would not deserve praise for any subsequent quitting.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:35 AM   #180 (permalink)
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Well, that's a good point. Although we now know that we drink purely for pleasure, without that knowledge there is no intention to indulge in hedonism and so is there anything immoral in the behaviour? If we returned to drinking with what we know now of course there would be clear intention and so we would not deserve praise for any subsequent quitting.
Kudos to you, Aleric. When I thought the 'desire to drink' was 'me' (despite the ambivalence) there was no immoral behaviour. Once I learnt AVRT, I couldn't unlearn it. To continue drinking after the knowledge that it was pleasure based....only then, would it be immoral.
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