dwtbd

Just letting the focus on, or myopic view of abstinence from intoxicating substances to be broadened by the introduction of 'other conditions ' is AV.

Even , or especially when those conditions include damage from past substance use. An holistic approach to ending an addiction doesn't fit, the beast is a 'part' by definition and caging or cleaving IT does nothing but mend the whole, not the other way 'round. "Fixing' one's self is a laudable goal, but has nothing to do with booze, booze and booze getting are ends unto themselves, anything that says otherwise is the 'booze talkin'.

AlericB

I guess the reason that's true is because you can't fix yourself holistically without fixing your booze problem but you can fix your booze problem without fixing everything else.

dwtbd

I suppose so
And some even more counterintuitiveness , I needed a Big Plan to tackle a small( discrete) problem

Wholesome

Absolutely! The idea that you need to do anything other than quit drinking to cure your alcoholism is Addictive Voice.

AlericB

It reminds me of the joke "I said to the doctor, 'It hurts when I do this' [raises arm]. He said, 'Well, don't do it then."

Morning Glory

I set up the rules and the forum. I am just a mom who came here to get help to cope with my son's alcoholism. I have never been a member of any group or program or recovery movement. This has nothing to do with any recovery program. It's just what works here after trying many things for 3 years. Simple as that. There is no conspiracy.

Fusion

Morning Glory, thank you, wholeheartedly, for this forum. I truly appreciate its existence and the hard work you've clearly put in over the years, in establishing and maintaining this forum, plus the balancing act you need to perform.

I'm a mom too and I sincerely hope that your son is doing well.

Algorithm

This is your Addictive Voice, Tatsy.

Only then... can the process of ending... begin...

Can you see this?

Wholesome

This has nothing to do with recovery, but it's my thread so whatevs!

I went to go see Roger Waters last night! It's always been a dream of mine to see Pink Floyd, but since they say they will only reunite when Palestine is free, that will never be allowed to happen. So next best thing is seeing the band members play with different musicians. Anyways, he was amazing! When he played this song I teared up a little bit, I was just so overcome with emotion being there seeing the show. I'm so happy that I don't drink anymore and now I have the money and the motivation to go out and see all these shows. I've got my life back!

Fusion

Yes, but it wasn't my AV. It was me, I was trying, rather clumsily it seems, to explain this: if someone has been indoctrinated in a program and thereby believes that they'll never, ever, be able to conquer addiction under their own steam - then, that falsehood needs to be exposed for the AV it is, in order for them to have the necessary open mind required to learn a method that will conquer addiction forever.

I'm sorry I don't explain myself better previously. That is why I've posted here, because without the 'deprograming' there can be no learning of the permanent solution to addiction, that we've applied.

Greenwood618

I think that most people who initially surf into the other forums, or who recount multiple drunkalogues and relapses, are ambivalent at best about quitting. I think they mostly want someone to tell them there are others out there like them who want the benefits of drinking minus the negatives.

I think they want to be told that their behavior isn't that bad and that things will be okay. And there are plenty of fellow travelers more than happy to do just that.

If in the process, someone comes here and finds AVRT, it is usually by chance anyway. But it would be nice to be able to point out the differences.

Algorithm

Except that AVRT itself is rapid deprogramming, so I don't view deprogramming as a precondition, or a contingency, on anyone's recovery.

The collective AV in society at large certainly grips the minds of addicted people with tenacity, but that is only because it is merely a refined version of the addicted population's own Addictive Voice -- an expression of their persistent desire to drink or use in spite of predictable bad consequences.

This is why some find AVRT threatening, or at least their Beasts do. The Beast instinctively borrows new ideas from any and all available sources, and then 'upgrades' its own AV with those new ideas. It then pumps the new, upgraded AV back at its host, as if it were its own original creation.

AVRT will still identify those upgrades, though, for they are merely distilled Addictive Voice.

Fusion

I agree with everything you wrote Algorithm!

But, although this is Zen's AVRT thread, when the earlier censorship occurred (most likely due to 'red buttons') I was trying to broaden the argument for less censorship, to include the other secular methods mentioned here in Secular Connections, RefugeRecovery, SMART Recovery etc. This is because in my opinion (not my experience because none of the other methods worked for me, save for AVRT) I believe there should be unbridled access and discussion of methods to recover. And often, that involves discussing why another method didn't work.

In the "Alcoholism" section of the forum, presently, there are examples of folks saying that nobody can stop drinking on their own! But I don't 'red button' them. Why would I, I'm secure, but nonetheless it's an insidious and innacurate message to be spread. As I said on that forum last night, SR is chock full of folks who've stopped drinking under their own steam.

dwtbd

"AVRT will still identify those upgrades, though, for they are merely distilled Addictive Voice"
or triple distilled for smoothness

never too 'old' for a little shifting exercise

dwtbd

Everyone who has quit, has done so under their own steam

Whether they realize or acknowledge it, AVRT helps to cut to the chase

Wholesome

I was in a counseling session yesterday afternoon with my son and we were discussing how I used to drink and the counselor just couldn't accept that I'd just quit. She came back to it several times, wanted to know what kind of support I used and how I'd done it and kept saying how hard it is to quit. I told her about this forum and AVRT and said that the hard part was getting to the point where I was ready to make the commitment to quit forever, but that once I had gotten there that it was easy and a relief. She was so puzzled by the fact that I don't go to meetings and that I am not struggling, she kept saying but it's so hard. She is a youth counselor and I thought to myself I hope she isn't telling the kids she sees who have drug and alcohol issues how hard it is and how they can't do it on their own. There really is a cultural message that no one can do it on their own and that it's a next to impossible task that requires almost superhuman powers and that it's really really hard! Just quitting is not an acceptable outcome, and certainly not just quitting on your own.

dwtbd

There is a kernel of truth to what that therapist was saying , and why so many half truths are so harmful or dangerous. Addiction is hard , all aspects of it. But being trapped in it or experiencing it is an illusion , the end of it is not hard . It requires the breaking of the illusion of how difficult the 'ending' of the addiction 'is'.
Cut and run sounds too 'easy' , yeah ? I know I let my AV hold sway over that decision,
"Ha , if that were true , you'd have done it already, its way harder more complicated , try something else , later , right now let's drink"

The idea that someone can , let alone actually does, choose permanent abstinence is anathema to AV , institutionalized, social/cultural or individual. Those who can't believe it are still under the spell of the illusion.
Thankfully ya can't unpop that bubble

Algorithm

The all-time classic. I call it the AV Möbius strip.
The Beast can recite Shakespeare, and outdoes George Orwell himself.

Addiction is difficult, whereas recovery is easy.

Addiction is one day at a time, between fixes, whereas recovery is forever.

From the Quick Start on Rational Recovery:

GerandTwine

Cut And Run Dry!
Four three letter words can say a lot. So, why is the book "Rational Recovery, The New Cure For Substance Addiction, The Revolutionary Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous" 368 pages long? It is because of what Tatsy is referring to and more - existing context, deprogramming, structural model, family and friends, etc. All 368 pages are important in creating a correct context for understanding what addiction truly is.

With that said, it is always a useful Technique to Recognize what is and what isn't Addictive Voice in any given thought or feeling as Algo has done.

As to expanding the realm of AVRT in SR, I found it fun to start up a blog here and the thirteen posts over the last four years total thousands of hits; and they can pop up on google searches. The SR blogs allow a lot more freedom of speech. For greatest viewership, it is important to make the blog public, and not just viewable to SR members.

As to religion and AVRT there are no links pro or con. The biggest prohibition drive in history pushed people to decide "I will never drink again God helping me." The last three words are AV. Tammy711's blog describes how she overcame that. The moral values behind making a Big Plan may have commonalities with religious beliefs, but that is essentially coincidence.

In the early 90's Jack Trimpey realized that the Recovery Group Movement and it's business arm the Addiction Treatment Industry was a monstrous digesting machine that would swallow up any new recovery method, digest it, and excrete it, indistinguishable from the others in the pile. So he took Rational Recovery and Cut and Ran, Dry, and symbolically cancelled ALL Recovery Group Meetings and severed all connections between RR and the Addiction Treatment Industry. The reason I bring this up here is because I belive it is possible to create a grass roots organization that can be immune from this RGM/ATI digestion, as RR has done.

If we were to start a grass roots organization called Abstainers Alliance, and define its membership as having made recovery an EVENT of Total Self Recovery - taking the pledge - I NEVER DRINK, I believe there is a chance it could actually end up overshadowing the whole RGM/ATI and rendering them much less potent and dangerous. After all, as Greenwood has inferred, anyone who has truly quit is using separation ala AVRT. I think Cut And Run Dry (The Winning CARD to beat addiction) would be a great motto for the portion of new AAers (Abstainers Alliancers) who were Phormer Drunks (PhDs). It would be open to never addicted abstainers, too. It would help bring permanent abstention out from the shadows. Check out this link to a study that shows how many abstainers there are in the U.S. alone. Its HUGE. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8d8d6c525b68

And Abstainers Alliance would be first in the alphabetical listings of "programs".

GT

PS. Any similarity of Abstainers Alliance's initials and other program initials is purely coincidental.

dwtbd

INDies and PhDs