Greenwood618

I am afraid I wasn't clear enough and you perhaps misunderstood because of my lack of clarity.

I don't wish to make this an endless AV exercise, as that can go around in circles of rhetorical points, quite tedious.

The question is designed to root out hidden AV.

If the sun would never shine again, would you drink? If fine food were replaced with cabbage soup daily forever, would you drink?

I think I know the answer - but the point remains, no conditions on abstinence are allowed.

And of course, life is meant to lived and enjoyed, not debated and dissected. Like most non-drinkers, I get my pleasures and satisfactions in plenty of ways.

But what I meant was, none of them are phony. I have learned to be happy with dopamine levels that aren't boosted by alcohol.

Wholesome

Yes, I definitely misunderstood your question! I was confused by it lol. No, my BP is solid, even if the sun stopped shining. Even if my life fell apart around me and I was filled with suffering, drinking would still not be an option. My life has improved since quitting but that's not a requirement for me to stay quit.

Algorithm

Jeffrey knows very well that AVRT is not religious, and he says as much in his post, so I would wager that what actually concerns him is that AVRT does not exclude religiosity, unlike some other secular recovery homes he is accustomed to, where people often gather around and criticize the religiosity of mainstream recovery for most of the meetings. This is why he places devil in quotation marks, for example, as he does with Beast.

Of course, Beast is simply the name that AVRT gives to the addiction. It is no more a metaphor than 'triangle' is a metaphor for a geometric figure with three sides. Humans use language, and they name things in order to enable communication and complex thoughts. Were it otherwise, none of us would be able to communicate with each other over thousands of miles away via computer networks, as we are doing here, for example.

Addiction is not unique to secularists, however, and the religious-secular divide, as it pertains to addiction recovery, is entirely a consequence of having placed the adoption of a particular religious orientation as an obstacle to recovery for so long. Indeed, the sub-heading for the secular forum is "Alternatives to 12 Step Recovery", which perfectly reflects this reality.

AVRT, of course, is not an alternative to 12-Step recovery per se. Rather, it is an alternative to addiction, and it does not discriminate very much between secular and religious approaches. Its target is the Addictive Voice -- that comprehensive style of thinking that sustains addiction -- regardless of its source.

Perhaps, but AVRT would require no modifications if it really were Satan himself whispering sweet nothings into addicted people's ears. This is what concerns the ardent secularists.

Greenwood618

Fascinating. So some people consistently blow their tops around here when AVRT comes up because it is not atheist enough for them? Had no idea.

"Secular" is a bit of a misnomer for AVRT discussions, in any case. Why not just have one called "AVRT Discussions?"

Because it is perfectly compatible with every religion, lack therof, and everything in between. There are a great many traditions on the the Latin American and Mediterranean Catholic churches of making a lifetime abstinence vow to a saint.

And while most religious leaders are poor addiction counselors, from what I have heard, the priests involved in such vows with their parishioners follow a coaching model that is basically AVRT's short program almost to the letter.

Certain key concepts here sure infuriate certain people, and looking back, that God isn't banned and that abstinence can be declared suddenly and permanently are the two biggies.

dwtbd

Ardency isn't always what it's cracked up to be, and I'm fairly ardent

Wholesome

This is very true! I would hate to think that there are people who dismiss AVRT because they think that it's exclusively secular, when in fact the opposite is true. It's the most inclusive way out there, doesn't ask you to change anything about yourself except what you are trying to change, your addiction, whatever it may be.

AlericB

I'd like to say to any newcomers that the vast majority of members here will not regard you as being 'furious" or "blowing your top" merely because you wish to discuss, heaven forbid, a key concept of AVRT.

Newcomer's come to new experiences not knowing so much and therefore open to what they don't know. What we don't know is always a larger field than what we do know, even for us "experts", and while of course we stop being a beginner after a certain point we can all benefit from the creativeness and possibilities that newcomers bring. It helps us stay fresh - I made a fresh start and want to stay that way and retain a "beginners mind".

Sorry to introduce a note of what probably sounds like pretentiousness into your interesting thread zenchaser but I felt it needed to be said in the light of some of the above posts

Wholesome

It's all good Aleric! I agree with you, I want newcomers to feel welcome here too. This sub-forum is the gem of SR in my opinion and I wish it got more traffic because this is where people can learn to quit their habit once and for all and then get to move on in their lives and get out of recovery. I also agree that the concept of forever can be too much for many people, their AV's simply won't allow it to be considered so they dismiss AVRT. I get it, my Beast is still sulking over my decision haha, as I admitted the other day. Too bad, so sad for IT. Another advantage of AVRT is that I find it encourages my intellect, I like learning more about the technique, I find it really interesting. I love talking about ideas. I've tried talking about RR with my friends but they don't really get it and a lot of them have AV's of their own so they treat it with suspicion. I'm glad this place exists so we can have these discussions.

AlericB

Stop being furious. I mean, I agree!

Fusion

I too wish there was more traffic. It's not helped, and most probably hindered, by the fact that this 'Secular Connections' is low down the main forum front page. There's an 'Alcoholism Information' section which contains the 'Alcoholism Forum' and 'AA 12 Step Forum' then there's a 'Drug Addiction' section which contains four forums......and finally, Secular underneath.

This placing doesn't just affect folks who might benefit from AVRT, as we did, but also folks who might benefit from Life Ring and SMART Recovery, plus secular AA and other recovery methods.

Perhaps the Secular Forum could be repositioned under 'Alcoholism Information', with a non-AA tag line of some sort. Perhaps that would benefit someone on SR. It was by luck and chance that I eventually ventured down here in the Secular basement, many months after I joined.

Wholesome

The Secular Basement! you just cracked me up! What are we the people under the stairs?

Fusion

LO! Zen! Following on from your reference to AVRT being the gem of SR, I once knew a very successful antiques dealer. When someone died the beneficiaries of the will would request dealers to survey the property contents and provide a global price, She more often than not, secured the purchase, because the other dealers only inspected the main house floors and rooms contents, but she would also inspect the dirty antics, outbuildings and basements and often she'd discover real gems.....such that she was able to offer far more money than the other dealers and secure the deal.

Wholesome

My AV reminded me of how many good parties I've been to in basements! Now here I am, sober, but still hanging out in basements hahaha. That just tickled my funny bone, thanks!

Fusion

This is so classic! We should pen a 'Hanging Out in Basements' lyric, maybe for a rap...

"I used to drink in basements.
I thought I was rather trendy.
The highs were great but the lows weren't friendly,
I became obnoxious and scary,
I visited a different basement,
The folks there passed on their wisdom,
That my drug of choice was feeding the dumb,
Part of my brain that wanted high and numb,
So I learnt a few lessons and WOW,
I will never drink again in the eternal here and now,
And I vow to spread the word and save more,
So I'm still hanging down there in that different basement,
And I'm clean, sober and content,
Just waiting to guide someone else to prevent,
Their stuckness in that drinking basement,
So they join me in this different basement,
Sober, clean and free,
So they and me,
Will be just hanging out in this new basement,
Sober clean and free,
For eternity."

AlericB

That read very naturally Tatsy. Basement poetry!

Wholesome

Tatsy, who knew you were also a lyricist?! lol Just like peeling an onion, we keep finding new layers, first a comedian then a rapper!

dwtbd

And an aspiring understudy to Sandy Duncan

Morning Glory

Rational Recovery and AVRT names are protected by their owner. We can't just throw that name up on a forum. We also had to remove the official names of the 12 step groups. One of our members got permission from JT to discuss RR in this forum.

fini

hi Morning Glory,
i'm curious: surely JT has no say in what folks discuss on any forum other than on his own, if he has one. though he could object to using the abbreviations or acronyms or capitalized beast and such, but would hve no say in whether folks here discuss his methods or not?

Algorithm

The folks at Rational Recovery are determined to keep AVRT away from the addiction treatment industry, so that it remains a viable method of independent recovery. This is the main reason for their service marks. I am reasonably certain from many of JT's writings that were anyone on this forum making money off AVRT, and RR found out about it, that Sober Recovery would hear from them.

He has also written about the use of terms by individuals who utilized AVRT to describe how they recovered from their addiction.