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I am not my Beast.

Old 09-19-2017, 01:23 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Zen, using Glen's book, I haven't given up chocolate, but placed it in the conditional category. So, I'm on a self-improvement excercise, get fit! I set daily targets for physical activity with my Fitbit and if I achieve it, then, and only then, can I eat chocolate, at a pre-set amount.

It's akin to your earlier post regarding self-discipline, which I believe is central to addiction stoppage. Last century, addictive beliefs seems to have turned on its head, when compared with the previous thousands of years understanding, all, in my opinion, due to someone's interpretation of Buchmanism, to the detriment of society, and us individually.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:14 AM
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I found this through a google search of Buchmanism. Ideas and people like this are why I am and always will be non-religion. It makes me grateful to live in a country where church and state have been separated so yawhoo's like Buchman can't try to actually make their weird ideologies a reality for the masses.


The basic tenet of MRA is that the reformation of the world can only be achieved by creating a moral and spiritual force, by convincing all men of the necessity of absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. As helps to the practice of these cardinal virtues and to the further development of their moral life, the members of MRA engage in the exercises of sharing, surrender, substitution, and guidance. It is the last practice in particular that is of interest in an evaluation of this group.

Many leaders, Buchman states, are convinced that the world needs a moral and spiritual awakening, and they put their case in striking phrases. But that is only words. The problem facing men is how to do it. To solve this difficulty Buchman turns to God:

Now I find when we don’t know how, God will show us if we are willing. When man listens, God speaks. When man obeys, God acts. The secret is God-control. We are not out to tell God. We are out to let God tell us. And He will tell us.

The lesson the world most needs is the art of listening to God. [2]

Listening to God is the heart of MRA. As a program of spiritual reformation, it must be performed according to protocol. Everyone must set aside a "quiet time" of fifteen minutes a day to listen to the voice of God. Although "anyone can hear the words of the Lord," it is also necessary to obey certain rules:

The first rule is that we listen honestly for everything that may come—and if we are wise we write it down. The second rule is that we test the thoughts that come, to see which are from God.

One test is the Bible. It is steeped in the experience through the centuries of men who have dared, under Divine guidance, to live experimentally with God. There, culminating in the life of Jesus Christ, we find the highest moral and spiritual challenge—complete honesty, purity, unselfishness, and love.

Another excellent test is, "What do others say who also listen to God?" This is an unwritten law of fellowship. It is also an acid test of one’s commitment to God’s plan. No one can be wholly God-controlled who works alone. [3]

Buchman is sure that he has this direct guidance from on high:

In a revolution I went through not long ago, God gave me direct orders to stay in a place which the authorities had said was the most dangerous of all. I stayed. Others, who fled in search of safety, nearly lost their lives. My friend and I were perfectly safe. [4]

The results of his listening are clear. He finds that God’s thoughts become his thoughts. In fact, "direct messages come from the Mind of God to the mind of man—definite, direct, decisive. God speaks." [5]

This gift is not limited to himself. Everyone can, in fact, must, receive his instruction directly from God:

We accept as a commonplace a man’s voice carried by radio to the uttermost parts of the earth. Why not the voice of the living God as an active, creative force in every home, every business, every parliament? Men listen to a king when he speaks to his people over the air. Why not the King of Kings? He is alive, and constantly broadcasting. [6]

Thus divine guidance must become the normal experience of ordinary men and women. "Any man," says Buchman, "can pick up divine messages if he will put his receiving set in order. Definite, accurate, adequate information can come from the Mind of God to the minds of men." [7]

Receiving this communication from God to begin a life governed by absolute honesty, purity, unselfishness, and love is only the first step. It is the reform of self which must come before anything else can be accomplished. But the aim of MRA is more comprehensive. Buchman envisages the change not only of individuals, but, through them, of the entire human race:

Wherever I go people say one thing: "If only so-and-so would be changed!" You probably thought of the very person. Or you probably thought of five persons. Well, think of five persons changed. Think of nations changed. Is that the answer? The world is looking for an answer, and, by the Grace of God, there is an answer. But be clear on this point, the answer is not in any man or any group of men. The answer rests in the living God. It rests in a God-controlled person. It rests in a God-controlled nation. It rests in God-controlled supernationalism. [8]

Individual change of hearts leading to the reformation of the world is the plan and purpose of MRA. Moral Rearmament, therefore, is not a new organization which prescribes allegiance to a system of truths or precepts, but avowedly is only a means of deepening the truths which every man must hold. It is neither a church nor a religious sect. There are no dogmas to profess; no rites to practice. MRA exists only to change the lives of men, to make zealous reformers out of sinners, who still remain members of their individual churches. "Catholic, Jew and Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Confucianists—all find they can change, where needed, and travel along this good road together."
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:07 AM
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Morality was the main factor in my decision to stop drinking because of the harm I was doing to myself and others. This does fit in with all the world religions quite well because they all counsel self-control and warn against hedonistic pleasure and so can provide the initial motivation to stop.

I needed an absolute, cast-iron guaranteed way to stop drinking which ultimately meant that I had to rely on my myself. and relying on any external help would have meant an indirection and dependence that would not have worked for me. But I think this is still compatible with mainstream religions because, in their best representations, they all talk about taking self-responsibility for our own actions. I agree with you though that religion is often portrayed in ways that detracts from personal responsibility as if it were something that's old-fashioned and of no contemporary value.
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:04 PM
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That's the reason I stopped too Aleric. Drinking changed me into someone who I didn't like and made my act in ways that I was ashamed of. I was hurting those who are the most dear to me. I also had to have my commitment come from within. If I put any stipulations on it then my mind would soon find a way to wiggle out of them, I know because I tried. I am a Godless heathen though and have no faith so that was never an option. Sometimes I wonder about it, consciousness and the universe are awe inspiring, I've just never looked for answers in a church or the bible. I'd rather geek out on documentaries about science. Who knows though? Certainly not me, one day I'll find out when my time comes.

AVRT does work for anyone and everyone though, regardless of their beliefs or lack of. I'm glad I found something where the answer required having faith in my ability to rescue myself.
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:12 PM
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When I was reading this post I had no idea what AVRT meant, I honestly thought it was another acronym used on social media. I don't do any type of social media so I never know lol. Anyway, I googled it and got to a web page that listed 16-rules maybe? I wouldn't necessarily look at them as suggestions because they seem that whoever came up with this program looks at it pretty factual (just like many recovery based suggestions) I imagine the young man named Dax who says he has gone to a place where addiction is completely cured. Hallelujuah! I always wonder, if they "cure my addiction" can I go tie one off after and not face any problems nor consequences? Who knows, I sure do not want to test it out... Anyway, forgive me I tend to drift off when writing.

So I found this definition of AVRT-AVRT-based recovery is an immediate, uncomplicated, private event, and is not a long, melodramatic process of gradual self-improvement. As such, AVRT® is the crown jewel of addiction recovery.

My whole life has always been melodramatic with no self-improvement. That is not until I found AA. I told myself over and over again that I could beat it, that I am not going to be addicted to drugs and alcohol anymore. Tomorrow I shall be free and things will be different. It never ever worked, ever. A good ole' "whole family done" and six months jail time at least got me to admit I was powerless. POWERLESS- I must tell myself this because I am. Drugs/alcohol (and minor mental problems) will bring me down quicker than a shot to the dome.

In reference to your friend- I tell myself every day that I am an addict. The second I forget is the second I will use. The second I think "I got this, I'm cured! is the second I use. Death is next for me....I don't negotiate my sobriety.

But thank you for the info about the AVRT thing, I always like to hear all the different ways people recover. Congrats on being able to do it this way, I would love not to have to drudge my whole past out, make amends to people I have hurt but it is the only thing that worked for me!
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:34 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Hi Jessicamae. I would encourage you to learn more about AVRT. It's about more than just swearing off and declaring yourself cured. It's about mastering your mind and not allowing your thoughts or Addictive Voice to become a reality. I consider myself recovered and I am certain I will never take another drink. Why? Because I say so. I also don't negotiate about my sobriety. Period. If you can't put a stop to it and take your control back then who can? AVRT is a learned skill for taking back your control. Read around on here and ask questions, there are lots of really great threads about the technique and we all like to talk about it and help others who are interested.
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:42 PM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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I always wonder, if they "cure my addiction" can I go tie one off after and not face any problems nor consequences?

The cure Rational Recovery talks about is planned permanent abstinence. I will never drink again and I will never change my mind, no matter what. Any thought, feeling, or image contrary to that pledge is considered Addictive Voice and is to be ignored. That's kind of it in a nutshell. The trick is learning to scan and recognize those thoughts that are AV so they can be ignored. The idea is to see that voice as not YOU, but IT, IT being your addiction talking.

The beauty is in the simplicity.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:00 PM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Zenchaser-
I was talking about this guy name Pax Prentiss Meet Pax Prentiss - CEO Of Passages Addiction Treatment Centers

His commercials are sooo funny. Like I said, I love to learn and today I learned an alternate way people get better. I know many people who woke up one day and quit, I think that is great. Maybe I just need some extra help. I need that extra accountability, I love the fellowship of the meetings, I love that I found G.O.D= good orderly direction, my definition of God. About the control thing, I believe the only thing I am in control of us my reactions to things. I am not responsible for my addiction but I am responsible for my recovery.

There were times where I would justify my using because I had a hard life or the world dealt me a bad hand. I thrived being a victim and honestly, I still put myself in that position. But yes, I try to ignore the voices that tell me it's OK this time to go get high, a beer would never lead to shooting up pills again lol.

Keep it simple. As I read more about this there are many similarities between the two programs as well as differences. What fun would things be if we all did the same exact things? Thank you for your input and bringing this to my attention. Maybe I can use this with a sponsee I have, she thinks a lot like this. I think I will direct her to read about this tonight.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:01 PM
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:02 PM
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Passages at Malibu--
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jessicamae View Post
Passages at Malibu--
There are no similarities.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:47 PM
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I'm curious, AVRT practitioners: Do you not drink because you say so (Will), or because you really don't want to (Lack Of Desire)? Seems to me there's a difference. I really don't want to drink ever again, that's the major reason why I won't. It's not that I want to but refuse, or "can't", or even that some other part of me wants to but my cerebrum over-rules it, I just plain don't want to ever go there again because I recognize "there" for what it is, hell on Earth. Gradually, it's becoming a feeling similar to how I feel about, say, dropping acid like I used to do 35 years ago - ugh, no interest at all. Is that the same for you, or different?
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
I'm curious, AVRT practitioners: Do you not drink because you say so (Will), or because you really don't want to (Lack Of Desire)? Seems to me there's a difference. I really don't want to drink ever again, that's the major reason why I won't. It's not that I want to but refuse, or "can't", or even that some other part of me wants to but my cerebrum over-rules it, I just plain don't want to ever go there again because I recognize "there" for what it is, hell on Earth. Gradually, it's becoming a feeling similar to how I feel about, say, dropping acid like I used to do 35 years ago - ugh, no interest at all. Is that the same for you, or different?
What if the interest reappeared?
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:23 PM
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I don't drink because I have chosen not to. Ever. What my desire might be around drinking no longer matters. I don't really see this as a matter of will because that to me implies that I hold up the possibility of drinking now or later and measure it against my will. That doesn't really seem to describe what I experience. My choice of permanent sobriety was made outside of the realm of my desire to drink, and there it stays.
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:58 PM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jessicamae View Post
I found this definition of AVRT-AVRT-based recovery is an immediate, uncomplicated, private event, and is not a long, melodramatic process of gradual self-improvement. As such, AVRT® is the crown jewel of addiction recovery.

... I would love not to have to drudge my whole past out, ...
Me too, nevertheless, before I found AVRT, I did just that in front of complete strangers more questionable to me than people I might meet at a flea market.

Thanks for the definition, It's a very consice definition especially when set beside all the other ways people work to keep themselves from swallowing alcohol.

When I found AVRT (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique) soon after it had been put into an articulated program of recovery by Rational Recovery, I cut and ran, dry. You, too, can cut and run, dry.

It is a complete cure from addiction.

I was so happy to then be able to get on with my life and self-improve when and if I chose, without the ghost of Frank Buchman hovering over me trying to shame me into some strange mutation of Christianity.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jessicamae View Post
I always wonder, if they "cure my addiction" can I go tie one off after and not face any problems nor consequences?
The "new" cure that RR speaks of is as old as the hills -- planned, permanent abstinence. It is a cure in the sense that no new problems will ever arise from drinking/using if one abstains from doing so.

In AVRT, the aim is not to remove the addiction, but to learn to live comfortably with it as an impotent, and harmless, albeit perhaps permanent, presence. In fact, unlike in other methods, the desire itself (aka, the Beast) is not considered the cause of the addiction, even though it is the source of the cause (the Addictive Voice).

In AVRT, the target is the proximal cause, not the distal one. To use an analogue, picture a revolver. Instead of targeting the bullets for removal, the target would be the firing trigger, which is closer to the hands, and which sets the bullets in motion.

Originally Posted by jessicamae View Post
I try to ignore the voices that tell me it's OK this time to go get high, a beer would never lead to shooting up pills again lol.
With AVRT, we don't ignore those voices or try to remove them -- we welcome them as a normal and natural consequence of physiological adaptation. The body is doing precisely what it was designed to do, whether by G-d or by evolution, even though it may not have been prepared for the onslaught of hedonic chemicals.

We recognize that such voices do not necessarily indicate disease, and that they are normal and perfectly healthy, given the conditions that gave rise to them. We know that we are perfectly safe from them, because we understand where they come from, and because they are relatively easy to recognize once properly defined.

Originally Posted by jessicamae View Post
As I read more about this there are many similarities between the two programs as well as differences. What fun would things be if we all did the same exact things?
Similar logic, yes, but the logic engines are spinning in different directions.

  • "Any thinking which contradicts the program is the voice of your disease."
    vs.
  • "Any thinking which contradicts your Big Plan is the voice of your addiction."

Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
I'm curious, AVRT practitioners: Do you not drink because you say so (Will), or because you really don't want to (Lack Of Desire)? Seems to me there's a difference. I really don't want to drink ever again, that's the major reason why I won't. It's not that I want to but refuse, or "can't", or even that some other part of me wants to but my cerebrum over-rules it, I just plain don't want to ever go there again because I recognize "there" for what it is, hell on Earth.
Through the lens of AVRT, the desire for the absence of the desire to indulge in order to abstain simply conceals a plan to indulge in the presence of that very desire. So does the 'hell on Earth' contingency on abstinence. Both sentiments are Addictive Voice, since they both support and suggest the possibility of some more drinking.

If I may add to what Greenwood already asked, what if drinking were suddenly paradise on Earth instead? What then? Would you drink?
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Me too, nevertheless, before I found AVRT, I did just that in front of complete strangers more questionable to me than people I might meet at a flea market.

Thanks for the definition, It's a very consice definition especially when set beside all the other ways people work to keep themselves from swallowing alcohol.

When I found AVRT (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique) soon after it had been put into an articulated program of recovery by Rational Recovery, I cut and ran, dry. You, too, can cut and run, dry.

It is a complete cure from addiction.

I was so happy to then be able to get on with my life and self-improve when and if I chose, without the ghost of Frank Buchman hovering over me trying to shame me into some strange mutation of Christianity.
Yes quite interesting. Don't quite know how what follows fits globally, however there is a common thread I see.

Buchanism, the religious group, was based on on utter, blind, prostrate confession and admission of no control over one's fate.

At same time, in other forums and posts, you can clearly see the dependence of people who identify themselves as alcoholics. Please, someone help me. Please, someone talk to me. I am desperate.

The first addiction to some is dependence, or perhaps more properly defined, narcissism light. They derive a supply of attention from their struggles, positive or negative, doesn't matter which.

Somewhat like the religious men sitting around in the 1930s confessing in front of each other, encouraged by each other, because the deal was, Supply me with some attention, and I will return the favor.

AVRT, however, as diplomatically as can be stated, stands for the supposition that if something is harmful, you should quit itl.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:18 AM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post
The first addiction to some is dependence, or perhaps more properly defined, narcissism light. They derive a supply of attention from their struggles, positive or negative, doesn't matter which.

Somewhat like the religious men sitting around in the 1930s confessing in front of each other, encouraged by each other, because the deal was, Supply me with some attention, and I will return the favor.
This "first addiction" idea suggests that "narcissism light" may be an indicator for why some people do not maturely stop short, but then progress into chemical/other dependence which then would become the second addiction; because of the infantile payoff of attention from the struggles in trying to safely secure the pleasure (positive) and struggles in trying to ameliorate the fallout (negative).

That sounds like a theory as to why some people become dependent sooner or longer than others.

It also reaffirms that endless recovery is a form of addiction, too.

Originally Posted by Greenwood618
AVRT, however, as diplomatically as can be stated, stands for the supposition that if something is harmful, you should quit itl.
And "harmful" can be scaled along a moral axis of fully human at one end and fully animal at the other.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:19 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post
What if the interest reappeared?
Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
If I may add to what Greenwood already asked, what if drinking were suddenly paradise on Earth instead? What then? Would you drink?
Interesting. These both seem to me like manifestations of the disease theory, I have a permanent affliction and it might someday suddenly jump out from behind a bush and attack me, with interest or with some false allure. What if this, etc. Some have this perspective and combat it with permanent meetings, service, and so on, but it sounds like there's an element of this in AVRT too, where it's combated by falling back to a solemn vow? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

My own experience so far has been, triggers are part of a biochemical reactive phase that does fade away. They were mental knee-jerks, but in their absence - which has been always for many years now - there's no more desire to drink alcohol than to quaff paint thinner. I can't imagine suddenly having interest in quaffing paint thinner, and I know I've had zero interest for decades in snorting coke or dropping acid, so it stands to reason that there's no alcohol tiger behind any bushes either. I've looked around a lot of bushes, been scared or anxious about some, but nope, no tigers. I guess I don't believe in tigers anymore.
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Old 09-22-2017, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
Interesting. These both seem to me like manifestations of the disease theory, I have a permanent affliction and it might someday suddenly jump out from behind a bush and attack me, with interest or with some false allure. What if this, etc. Some have this perspective and combat it with permanent meetings, service, and so on, but it sounds like there's an element of this in AVRT too, where it's combated by falling back to a solemn vow? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

My own experience so far has been, triggers are part of a biochemical reactive phase that does fade away. They were mental knee-jerks, but in their absence - which has been always for many years now - there's no more desire to drink alcohol than to quaff paint thinner. I can't imagine suddenly having interest in quaffing paint thinner, and I know I've had zero interest for decades in snorting coke or dropping acid, so it stands to reason that there's no alcohol tiger behind any bushes either. I've looked around a lot of bushes, been scared or anxious about some, but nope, no tigers. I guess I don't believe in tigers anymore.
In AVRT,
The question remains. What you are proposing is the "I can't drink" premise. Because you don't want to, its poison, etc. in AVRT, the proposal is, even if I could, I wouldn't. In other words, giving up both the benefits and downsides.
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