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Old 12-17-2017, 12:58 AM   #221 (permalink)
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What a great thread.

Thanks for that.

My head sometimes hurts at the extent of thinking about what might be "beast" behaviour, but its very interesting.

I am with Fine on the addiction point, I know I cannot drink normally, and if I drink it will start the whole thing over, so I choose not to drink. But I am addicted. Same as with cigarettes.

I think the issue lies in how you define addiction -- for me addiction is when you know that for whatever reason you will always do something compulsively if you do it all. So for me, cigarettes, which I stopped 35 years ago, and alcohol, which I stopped a number of years ago.

But there are other things I do or have done that are addicting for others, but I am not addicted to, because I can do them and not do so compulsively.

I do not drink and I will never drink again because I choose not to because I know I am addicted and it will not end well. Ditto with cigarettes. But, for example, other drugs, I do not do them because I don't like them, or they are illegal, or I am too old, but its a whole other thing. Because I am not addicted.

But for me (not for you), the fact that I KNOW that if I take a drink or a smoke I will be back on the merry-go-round for me hoping I get another Day One is the most important reason that I CHOOSE not to drink. Ever. And not to change my mind. Ever.

For me.
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Old 12-17-2017, 10:04 AM   #222 (permalink)
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Hey Dropsie! I agree that if I were to start drinking again it would be a quick descent back into total addiction. Those neural pathways would be reactivated and my Beast would be back in control and who knows how long it would be until I'd be able to work up to another quit. That's why like you I've quit forever. I just don't want to go through the rest of my life defined by my past, yes I was addicted to alcohol but I've freed myself. It's finally over. I was an alcoholic, I was my Beast but I'm not anymore. I am a certified Teetotaler today and proud of it!
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Old 12-17-2017, 10:28 AM   #223 (permalink)
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One of my standard lines is:

You can't lust after that which you don't want

I don't fight or guard against or have to repel picking up because I'm done. If someone somewhere finds that a difficult notion to accept and deploy - well - that's their Gig that they're projecting onto me. It ain't my Gig. For one thing, I can't see the point of Mentally setting myself up for periodic [inevitable?] failure. Let's face it, a good bit of successful Lifetime Sobriety is mastering The Mental Game. As an Olympic Athlete might do in their pursuits. I occasionally replay some of the usual, wicked physical symptoms because they spontaneously pop into my Head. I'll spare all here the details.

My take is that any of us can recall the logical reasons for not Drinking. Beyond that, forever severing desire is a fabulous Firestop against it being the Holidays. Or, being at a Wedding Reception. Or, having limited my final 24/7 Drinking to only those Days that end in 'y'.

As a Female Boss used to joke, when referring to situations she'd had her fill of: 'Stick a Fork in my [Behind]. I'm done'! Indeed, I am...
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Old 12-24-2017, 02:31 AM   #224 (permalink)
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So my big thing for me for my whole 58 years is procrastination and the chaos it creates, which ain't pretty. Not pretty at all.

A friend of mine who is a sage has been telling me for years that I wait to create the shame, which creates the chaos, that the chaos and shame create the negative energy that think I need to do the work or deserve for some other reason. Another way to say it is that I have become attached to the negative energy and/or the chaos and/or the shame/guilt.

So that what I need to do is to realise what I am doing and to identify the negative energy and that I need to break that attachment and realise that I don't need the negative energy and that I can do my stuff even better with positive energy.

So as I say I have heard this for years and accepted it logically, but I never really could apply it. Its really an addiction.

But now for the last week or so for some reason I can really identify the negative energy and for the first time I know what she means.

And it is true that I use this energy to do my stuff.

And I also now see that to create it I first have to create a situation that makes me feel shame, so by waiting too long to start a project, not paying my bills, etc. This shame then creates the chaos and the negative energy which I then use to fuel my work.

And that this is all similar to the pattern I had when I was drinking, which was another way of creating shame. You may not see the analogy but for me its crystal.

So now the next step with the procrastination is to not listen to the voice that says don't do it, and to realise that I can do it without the shame and negative energy created by waiting.

But when I type that I feel the same resistance as I used to when I said I don't drink and I will never change my mind. Which tells me that I have solved the puzzle of my life time, now lets just see if I can apply the solution.

I will not wait and I will not change my mind. The procrastination monkey is not me, and I have the power to do my stuff. This may seem silly to those of you who don't have a procrastination disorder, but there is a serious correlation with alcohol misuse so maybe some can relate.

It will be tough to break this pattern and ignore the monkey, but I figure if I could stop drinking, this should be do-able.

The monkey is not me, I will do my stuff, and I will never change my mind. I am running this show and I have the power to ignore the monkey!.

Hope you all enjoy the holidays in whatever way you do.

Now I am off to DO something! As my present to myself!!!
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Old 12-25-2017, 03:06 AM   #225 (permalink)
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When I start feeling like I'm procrastinating about doing stuff or just generally being disorganized and flaky I find writing out lists of what I need to get done helps. Also I know that if I've got things to do I have to do them as soon as I get off work, if I wait until I've deflated then they won't get done. Still, as lazy as I can be at times it's nothing compared to how disorganized and flaky as I was when I was drinking...... I forgot about things and lost things all the time back then. I'm way more on top of my life these days, I haven't been in overdraft in ages and my closets and paperwork are organized these days. I'm not chronically late for work and looking like death warmed over when I show up. My kids are doing better in school and my pets are better cared for. Amazing how much smoother life can run when I'm not just trying to get through each day and instead I'm purposeful and focused.

I'm sure that there are self help books and websites out there to help with procrastination Dropsie.
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Old 12-25-2017, 07:48 AM   #226 (permalink)
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Pomodoro Technique

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Some Recovered Pals applied this time management trick to de-clutter before the Xmas arrival of Relatives, and to maintain long-term Environmental Serenity.

~ Pomodoro Technique ~
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:30 PM   #227 (permalink)
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I really have been plagued by AV recently and have not not been separating or distancing myself from it very well. I'm fine now btw and I think the problem was that I've always had a reluctance, one that I never fully acknowleded, to accept that my Beast is real.

The consequence was that whenever I experienced AV I didn't have a Beast to deflect it to and the only recourse I had was to regard it as belonging to me. But now that I've admitted that my Beast is real - that I'll always have a false survival drive directed towards chemically induced highs - I find that I have a real place to assign my AV to. I can now mentally bat my AV back to my Beast because IT is real. It is after all as real as my desire for drink is because it is my desire. It's a great feeling to have the total I/IT split. It's now experientially true for me that it's Beast that wants to drink and not me.
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Old 02-07-2018, 02:37 PM   #228 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropsie View Post
So my big thing for me for my whole 58 years is procrastination and the chaos it creates, which ain't pretty. Not pretty at all.

A friend of mine who is a sage has been telling me for years that I wait to create the shame, which creates the chaos, that the chaos and shame create the negative energy that think I need to do the work or deserve for some other reason. Another way to say it is that I have become attached to the negative energy and/or the chaos and/or the shame/guilt.

So that what I need to do is to realise what I am doing and to identify the negative energy and that I need to break that attachment and realise that I don't need the negative energy and that I can do my stuff even better with positive energy.

So as I say I have heard this for years and accepted it logically, but I never really could apply it. Its really an addiction.

But now for the last week or so for some reason I can really identify the negative energy and for the first time I know what she means.

And it is true that I use this energy to do my stuff.

And I also now see that to create it I first have to create a situation that makes me feel shame, so by waiting too long to start a project, not paying my bills, etc. This shame then creates the chaos and the negative energy which I then use to fuel my work.

And that this is all similar to the pattern I had when I was drinking, which was another way of creating shame. You may not see the analogy but for me its crystal.

So now the next step with the procrastination is to not listen to the voice that says don't do it, and to realise that I can do it without the shame and negative energy created by waiting.

But when I type that I feel the same resistance as I used to when I said I don't drink and I will never change my mind. Which tells me that I have solved the puzzle of my life time, now lets just see if I can apply the solution.

I will not wait and I will not change my mind. The procrastination monkey is not me, and I have the power to do my stuff. This may seem silly to those of you who don't have a procrastination disorder, but there is a serious correlation with alcohol misuse so maybe some can relate.

It will be tough to break this pattern and ignore the monkey, but I figure if I could stop drinking, this should be do-able.

The monkey is not me, I will do my stuff, and I will never change my mind. I am running this show and I have the power to ignore the monkey!.

Hope you all enjoy the holidays in whatever way you do.

Now I am off to DO something! As my present to myself!!!
This speaks deeply to me. Procrastination is (one of) my demons. It's shame and fear and anxiety producing. Which, for someone who is not built like us, must seem like a ridiculous thing to get addicted to.

But I certainly am. Although I have a law degree and work in a big city as a high stress lawyer - procrastination has hurt me in so many innumerable ways for years.

I'm reading Jordan Peterson new book 12 Rules for Living. Even in my 40s it is an insightful and challenging read.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:32 PM   #229 (permalink)
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Procrastination, of which I hold a fairly advanced degree in, wasn’t what kept me from quitting. More drinks was .
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:42 PM   #230 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropsie View Post
My head sometimes hurts at the extent of thinking about what might be "beast" behaviour, but its very interesting.
You may simply recognize the Beast by its bark, the AV, which is clearly defined, as simply "any thinking or feeling which supports, suggests, or directs your possible future use of alcohol and other drugs."

If the bark in your mind's eye or ear fits the definition of AV, it is coming from your Beast.

AV ≠ Beast

Bark → Dog = AV → Beast

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Originally Posted by Dropsie View Post
I am with Fine on the addiction point, I know I cannot drink normally, and if I drink it will start the whole thing over, so I choose not to drink. But I am addicted. Same as with cigarettes.
The underlined parts are your Addictive Voice. This bit about being able to 'drink normally' or being 'an addict' is an inversion.

Normal people don't drink, and it is the AV itself which incessantly argues otherwise, obviously supporting the possibility of some more drinking. What if you could 'drink normally', for example?

Does that mean that you would then go ahead and drink some more? The Beast is playing chess, since it now would only have to argue that you might be able to drink normally. This is often why people return to drinking after some time without.

Additionally, to say that one is 'an addict' or 'addicted' is to say one is their Beast, as far as AVRT goes. No separation at all. The AV has skillfully concealed the Beast's existence.

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I think the issue lies in how you define addiction -- for me addiction is when you know that for whatever reason you will always do something compulsively if you do it all.
There is a loophole here in this sentiment. A contingency upon which to abstain, which centers around the previous idea I touched on, that one "can't" drink 'normally'. Can you see this?

In the context of AVRT, addiction is chemical use or dependence that exists against one's own better judgment, and persists in spite of efforts to control or eliminate the use of the substance.

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I do not drink and I will never drink again because I choose not to because I know I am addicted and it will not end well.
Another contingency. Why focus on "what if?" with drinking, when never would suffice. Your Beast revels in "what if?" and will naturally try to argue that next time will be different.

The Beast doesn't particularly care either way, of course. Different or not, IT gets its life-giving 'oxygen', and if you or others are a casualty, that's just the way things go -- the price of its survival.
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Old 04-01-2018, 01:08 PM   #231 (permalink)
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Hi Algo!! So good to "see" you! How are you?
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Old 04-01-2018, 01:17 PM   #232 (permalink)
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Welcome back Algo!! Nobody teaches RR/AVRT as well as you do, you are a maestro!
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Old 04-02-2018, 03:09 AM   #233 (permalink)
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Less,

Funny, I am also a lawyer in a high stress job. I am always surprised how many lawyers have procrastination (and alcohol) issues.

Algo,

Not so into debating the fine points of AVRT, or AA, or whatever. For me, I have decided not to treat any of it as a beast, but rather as a misguided coping mechanism that means well, but is no longer fit for purpose.

Because it is all me. Some of its my higher power, some of it my inner child, some of it my god consciousness, some of it is my negative thinking, some of it is my AV. But for me, not for you, for me, its all me.

And the real me, is the one who sees that. And who sees that I no longer need that coping mechanism.

But to deny that we are addicted to alcohol is semantics taken a step too far in my opinion.

I am also addicted to cigarettes. I have not smoked in almost 40 years and will never do so again, but part of the reason I don't is because I am addicted. If I could have one every year, I might. Ditto with a glass of wine. I know you will say, see addictive voice. Maybe. I say its honesty.

I honestly would love to be able to have a glass of great red wine with dinner a couple nights a month. AV maybe, honest, absolutely.

But I can't. Why? Because I am addicted and I have accepted that. And that acceptance was key to my decision to never drink again and to never quit the decision.

For you, it may be different, but that is the way I see it.

I don't spend too much time thinking about my AV or drinking at all for that matter. But I know in my soul I am addicted and I always will be. The same as I know I will never drink or smoke again. And no glass of even the best wine is worth trading my freedom.

So for me, the AV is all part of being -- you guessed it, an addict.. if we were not addicts there would be no AV.

But I do really just think this is semantics.

Thanks.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:39 PM   #234 (permalink)
 
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Not so into debating the fine points of AVRT, or AA, or whatever. For me, I have decided not to treat any of it as a beast, but rather as a misguided coping mechanism that means well, but is no longer fit for purpose.
That's your prerogative, but there is little to debate. AVRT is a technical thing, so to speak, and clearly defined.

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Because it is all me. Some of its my higher power, some of it my inner child, some of it my god consciousness, some of it is my negative thinking, some of it is my AV. But for me, not for you, for me, its all me.
Of course it is "you" -- in the sense that your addiction (the Beast of AVRT) is part of your brain. AVRT is contrived (deliberately created) for the purpose of ending an unwanted chemical dependence -- an addiction.

AVRT is a method, and while it has some rudimentary basis in science, it is not dependent on science. It was synthesized (by Mr. Trimpey) from the input he received from the self-recovered population over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropsie View Post
And the real me, is the one who sees that. And who sees that I no longer need that coping mechanism.

But to deny that we are addicted to alcohol is semantics taken a step too far in my opinion.
Those 'semantics' are a core part of AVRT, however, which, once again, is contrived. Without separation, there is simply no AVRT.

"I want to drink, but I won't drink," for example, is perfectly fine, in that it may work out quite well for many, but it isn't AVRT.

'Beast' is simply the name that AVRT gives to the addiction, not particularly different than 'my addiction' in other contexts.

I'll just note for the sake of completeness that unlike most other methods, AVRT does not consider the Beast the cause of the addiction (the unwanted dependence), but rather, the source of the Addictive Voice.

The Beast can only 'bark' AV, and generate some feelings, but it cannot 'hijack' anything, much less one's arms and legs.
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Old 04-06-2018, 08:21 PM   #235 (permalink)
 

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Does that mean that you would then go ahead and drink some more? The Beast is playing chess, since it now would only have to argue that you might be able to drink normally. This is often why people return to drinking after some time without.
Exactly what happened to me after 10 years of abstinence.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:14 PM   #236 (permalink)
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I guess I consider myself a latent addict/alcoholic. I choose not to test the theory that I really am NOT an addict/alcoholic by trying to "just have one," or other such nonsense.

I don't drink or use anymore because I love my life and myself so much better without it. It works. I work. My AV is nearly extinguished. There's nothing in substance use for me anymore.

I never formally followed AVRT. But by the time I got out of rehab I'd just taken drinking off the table.

Not a real big fan of dogma here.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:47 PM   #237 (permalink)
 

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Not a real big fan of dogma here.
I think that several posters are explaining the finer points of the technique as it is outlined, since the OP topic is specific to the Addictive Voice Recognition Technique.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:45 AM   #238 (permalink)
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I never formally followed AVRT. But by the time I got out of rehab I'd just taken drinking off the table.

.
You may not have formally followed it, but you did it , you cut and ran, congrats!
Actually if you read around SR a lot of posters quit without ever have heard/learned any RR/AVRT terms. Which logically follows from the idea that the named terms represent universal concepts.
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Old 06-05-2018, 07:49 AM   #239 (permalink)
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I was driving home from work this morning and thinking about how the anticipation of getting high or drunk used to be almost as good as the actual act. When I knew I was going out that night to a club, I would have a ball of excitement in my stomach all day long know how high I planned on getting. Or going out to score coke would have me totally jazzed up. I would get pumped. Later on in my life, after I gave up drugs because I had kids and couldn't get away with the all nighters and my marriage had fallen apart because of our cocaine addictions (among other things), it was the thought of that nice cold beer waiting at home for me after work. For the longest time after I quit I wouldn't let my mind go down these paths, it seemed too dangerous to focus on these memories, like tempting fate or something. Now I can rattle that cage, as GT said, in a different thread. I think it's kind of interesting though that the build up was such a part of the whole ritual, it was part of the thrill. I really liked being "bad". I actually used to tell people, "I do drugs and it's not a problem." Or, "I'm not an alcoholic, alcoholics go to meetings." I'd even say that I whip my liver into submission. I was ALL Beast. The life I live now seemed unthinkable. Being a party animal was so wrapped up in my identity. I've really changed a lot since I quit.

Just kind of thinking out loud here.....

I'm thinking of renaming my boat. Right now she's the MissBHaven. My AV even helped me name my damn boat haha!
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Old 06-05-2018, 10:37 AM   #240 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BillieJean1 View Post
I was driving home from work this morning and thinking about how the anticipation of getting high or drunk used to be almost as good as the actual act. When I knew I was going out that night to a club, I would have a ball of excitement in my stomach all day long know how high I planned on getting. Or going out to score coke would have me totally jazzed up. I would get pumped. Later on in my life, after I gave up drugs because I had kids and couldn't get away with the all nighters and my marriage had fallen apart because of our cocaine addictions (among other things), it was the thought of that nice cold beer waiting at home for me after work. For the longest time after I quit I wouldn't let my mind go down these paths, it seemed too dangerous to focus on these memories, like tempting fate or something. Now I can rattle that cage, as GT said, in a different thread. I think it's kind of interesting though that the build up was such a part of the whole ritual, it was part of the thrill. I really liked being "bad". I actually used to tell people, "I do drugs and it's not a problem." Or, "I'm not an alcoholic, alcoholics go to meetings." I'd even say that I whip my liver into submission. I was ALL Beast. The life I live now seemed unthinkable. Being a party animal was so wrapped up in my identity. I've really changed a lot since I quit.

Just kind of thinking out loud here.....

I'm thinking of renaming my boat. Right now she's the MissBHaven. My AV even helped me name my damn boat haha!
The info in the short video at this link explains a lot of what the AV tries to take advantage of. https://www.theguardian.com/science/.../2011/aug/11/1

I’d say wait a year or so before you consider changing the boat name. Maybe just put a space on each side of the B.
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