Speaking to professionals about AVRT
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
I just quit , walked away from booze. Decided I wouldn't talk myself into rationalizing drinking again . Realized all the self talk/thoughts about triggers and motivations were just excuses I had relied on to be internally 'comfortable' with getting drunk and justify in some way that it wasn't entirely my 'fault', I mean cmon I was miserable ,no way I was doing that on purpose, right?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chester, UK
Posts: 684
For myself I'd say that the primary reason I drank was always for the buzz. It usually felt that it was something else though, usually that drinking would enhance the enjoyment of being with friends, of watching a film or that it would help relieve stress and aid relaxation.
These are all different forms of pleasure so I'd say that my conscious reason to drink was pleasure. But, as we know, drink doesn't really give pleasure - if it did then the more you drink the more pleasure you would get ad infinitum. So I really drank for a different reason, and this was for the buzz or the 'deep pleasure' as it's sometimes called in AVRT.
These are all different forms of pleasure so I'd say that my conscious reason to drink was pleasure. But, as we know, drink doesn't really give pleasure - if it did then the more you drink the more pleasure you would get ad infinitum. So I really drank for a different reason, and this was for the buzz or the 'deep pleasure' as it's sometimes called in AVRT.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: England
Posts: 808
Okay thank you for your input everyone.
GT, you have a very direct way of speaking that seems to directly enrage my Beast. So I have no doubt you are on to something.
It took me some time to process your words, and I realised the truth in much of what you are saying. It is a bitter pill to swallow to recall that yes, in the ten minutes before drinking, I thought "To hell with the consequences I can just recover all over again" and very selfishly sought out deep pleasure. But I can see now why you wanted me to see this, so thank you. Please understand that I thought you were asking me to rationalise my decision to drink i.e 10 minutes before i was anxious, so wanted to numb the pain, 8 minutes before i was stressed so needed to calm down. Which is why I questioned it, I know now is not the purpose of that exercise.
RR and AVRT can be seemingly cold and harsh and I think that's intended to strip away excuses so you can see your AV more clearly. That being said, I find that during periods of stress, anxiety, depression etc etc that the AV can become much louder, much fiercer and more persuasive. My understanding of AVRT and the BP is that you have made a firm commitment to never drink NO MATTER WHAT. Regardless of how much mental pain you may be in. So although seeking help for mental health problems is certainly a wise thing to do, treating those conditions does not 'cure' the alcohol problem.
It's interesting reading everyone's various approaches. I think for me it's the BP and nothing else. (Although I am interested in the Shamanism that was mentioned?!)
GT, you have a very direct way of speaking that seems to directly enrage my Beast. So I have no doubt you are on to something.
It took me some time to process your words, and I realised the truth in much of what you are saying. It is a bitter pill to swallow to recall that yes, in the ten minutes before drinking, I thought "To hell with the consequences I can just recover all over again" and very selfishly sought out deep pleasure. But I can see now why you wanted me to see this, so thank you. Please understand that I thought you were asking me to rationalise my decision to drink i.e 10 minutes before i was anxious, so wanted to numb the pain, 8 minutes before i was stressed so needed to calm down. Which is why I questioned it, I know now is not the purpose of that exercise.
RR and AVRT can be seemingly cold and harsh and I think that's intended to strip away excuses so you can see your AV more clearly. That being said, I find that during periods of stress, anxiety, depression etc etc that the AV can become much louder, much fiercer and more persuasive. My understanding of AVRT and the BP is that you have made a firm commitment to never drink NO MATTER WHAT. Regardless of how much mental pain you may be in. So although seeking help for mental health problems is certainly a wise thing to do, treating those conditions does not 'cure' the alcohol problem.
It's interesting reading everyone's various approaches. I think for me it's the BP and nothing else. (Although I am interested in the Shamanism that was mentioned?!)
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
"Cold and harsh" to the Beast, discrete and laser like focused, unapologetically stripped to essentials for You 
Cold and harsh suggest a remoteness , a separation , bad things for the Beast, which by the way has access to all your vocabulary and connotations , baffling, cunning
Cold and harsh suggest a remoteness , a separation , bad things for the Beast, which by the way has access to all your vocabulary and connotations , baffling, cunning
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
As I learnt AVRT, my Beast detested it's cold and harsh approach. It wanted sympathy, hand-holding, lots of hugs, smileys and attention. I once had a Beast-led hissy-fit , here on SR, because someone didn't 'thumbs-up' my post. I kid you not, how shameful.
The trouble was, I'd tried the support and sympathy route, but it didn't work for me. In fact, it gave my Beast additional ammunition to prompt me to drink more, because, I was an 'alcoholic', with 'underlying issues', 'a hole in my soul' etc., so it wasn't my fault that I couldn't stop drinking....'poor me, poor me, pour me another drink' it said. And I did.
On reflection, the reason I started drinking was for pleasure, which may take many forms: heightening or dulling or avoidance or relief from thoughts, feelings and emotions. The addicted part of my brain sought to make me feel better, even though I was to be sacrificed for the rapidly diminishing 'pleasure'.
Towards the end of my drinking history, the first drink taken in the morning staved off the withdrawals. Although it didn't feel much like pleasure, it was pleasure in the form of relief, in that the alcohol was operant in the same pleasure centre parts of my brain, as it was decades ago when I was just an occasional drinker.
The addicted part of my brain cannot rationalise, the Beast, lives only in the 'now', hellbent on instant gratification, pleasure. After drinking my daily three bottles of wine, I'd swear at night that I'd taper tomorrow and stop drinking, yet the next day.......I'd drink. It was madness. But as I read the research into the process of addiction in my brain, I viewed it as a pre-set, habituated program, drink, drink, drink, without logic or reasoning, no matter what the repercussions. To counter it, the BP of AVRT is premised upon the same logic, don't drink no matter what.
The trouble was, I'd tried the support and sympathy route, but it didn't work for me. In fact, it gave my Beast additional ammunition to prompt me to drink more, because, I was an 'alcoholic', with 'underlying issues', 'a hole in my soul' etc., so it wasn't my fault that I couldn't stop drinking....'poor me, poor me, pour me another drink' it said. And I did.
On reflection, the reason I started drinking was for pleasure, which may take many forms: heightening or dulling or avoidance or relief from thoughts, feelings and emotions. The addicted part of my brain sought to make me feel better, even though I was to be sacrificed for the rapidly diminishing 'pleasure'.
Towards the end of my drinking history, the first drink taken in the morning staved off the withdrawals. Although it didn't feel much like pleasure, it was pleasure in the form of relief, in that the alcohol was operant in the same pleasure centre parts of my brain, as it was decades ago when I was just an occasional drinker.
The addicted part of my brain cannot rationalise, the Beast, lives only in the 'now', hellbent on instant gratification, pleasure. After drinking my daily three bottles of wine, I'd swear at night that I'd taper tomorrow and stop drinking, yet the next day.......I'd drink. It was madness. But as I read the research into the process of addiction in my brain, I viewed it as a pre-set, habituated program, drink, drink, drink, without logic or reasoning, no matter what the repercussions. To counter it, the BP of AVRT is premised upon the same logic, don't drink no matter what.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
Originally Posted by dwtbd 
I just quit , walked away from booze. Decided I wouldn't talk myself into rationalizing drinking again . Realized all the self talk/thoughts about triggers and motivations were just excuses I had relied on to be internally 'comfortable' with getting drunk and justify in some way that it wasn't entirely my 'fault', I mean cmon I was miserable ,no way I was doing that on purpose, right?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Portland maine
Posts: 1,330
Feeling it's too late
the beast has been telling me that since I lost my job, license and publicly humiliated myself at age 60, there is no point in going on. I thought I had conquered this, but the past few days it keeps seeping in. Just had to write this down. Feel very sad right now, yet I am sober.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chester, UK
Posts: 684
We never conquer it in the sense that we no longer hear this voice. Winning is in allowing our AV to be there whenever it so happens to be there without trying to push it away or entering into a debate or commentary on it. Don't get hard on yourself because we can't control thoughts like you describe.
If you are still sober then you are winning - if you can identify any feelings of failure that you are still experiencing AV as just more AV then you will be winning with a smile on your face
If you are still sober then you are winning - if you can identify any feelings of failure that you are still experiencing AV as just more AV then you will be winning with a smile on your face
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Originally Posted by zerothehero
I never saw triggers and motivations as "excuses," but rather part of utilizing awareness to avoid falling into the same traps.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by dwtbd
...no way I was doing that on purpose, right?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by dwtbd
untethered the connotation of trap from a call for more booze and dismissed them.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
The Addictive Voice easily negotiates with addicted people who know that they are using just for the pleasure; Pleasure = two steps forward, Bad Consequences = one step backwards, still worth doing.
For people who still believe their brain is like an explosive device with concealed hair "triggers" the Addictive Voice doesn't even have to negotiate. IT is what has burdened them with that ridiculous analogy to begin with.
For people who still believe their brain is like an explosive device with concealed hair "triggers" the Addictive Voice doesn't even have to negotiate. IT is what has burdened them with that ridiculous analogy to begin with.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by LonelyShadow
... RR and AVRT can be seemingly cold and harsh and I think that's intended to strip away excuses so you can see your AV more clearly. ...
From the very beginning of my learning about RR and AVRT, I have felt a warm sense of commonality, compassion, and even love for what has gone into making it the program that it became and is still becoming.
GerandTwine
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
It was a big turning point for me too when I realized the only reason I was drinking was for pleasure, even if was to make myself feel better from uncomfortable experiences or emotions, that's still pleasure seeking. And that is a normal part of being alive, we all seek pleasure and avoid pain. All of the talk about triggers and character faults and inner voids was BS and AV. The hardest part was seeing how my AV used my emotions as an excuse for more drinks, feelings of fear or anhedonia or sadness, it felt like me, but really it was my addiction talking because the cure was always a tall boy of Grolsch. Having faults and inner scars are inescapable facts of life, if fixing those parts of me becomes a requirement for sobriety then I would feel doomed. I remember when I used to go to meetings, not just AA, but WFS or out-patient, and I would always feel so confused and guilty and hopeless. I am eternally grateful for RR! Something logical and focused and sane. A how to manual for the answer to how to quit drinking for life. Cut and dry and effective.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,937
Originally Posted by Awake61
the beast has been telling me that since I lost my job, license and publicly humiliated myself at age 60, there is no point in going on. I thought I had conquered this, but the past few days it keeps seeping in. Just had to write this down. Feel very sad right now, yet I am sober.
Doors have been slammed in your face but you can kick down some other doors, too! If you keep to the Big Plan and never drink again you will regain control of your life.
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