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Old 06-07-2017, 07:44 AM
  # 61 (permalink)  
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Hunger and thirst and the reproductive impulse are not metaphors, they aren't names we give things that are really other things and they aren't tools of CBT.

They are survival drives that assert themselves and which are generally ignored until it is appropriate to satisfy them. With alcohol and a Big Plan, it is just ignored, period.

You all are nicing this up to avoid what you perceive to be an unpleasant reality, that the seed of immoral, reprehensible behavior is within you. It sounds like colossal defense mechanism - the Beast itself barking via the AV.

Finally, bashing another program will get you a suspension in SC. So lets avoid this, okay?

Last edited by shockozulu; 06-07-2017 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:49 AM
  # 62 (permalink)  
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Greenwood do you think that by recognizing and dismissing the AV we are using CBT? I absolutely believe that the drive is real.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:59 AM
  # 63 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by zenchaser View Post
Greenwood do you think that by recognizing and dismissing the AV we are using CBT? I absolutely believe that the drive is real.
I confess to not knowing anything about CBT because I do not care about CBT. I call what we do AVRT. If you want to call it CBT, go ahead, but don't expect me to.

I have no interest in psychology, psycho-babble, dual diagnosis, domestic problems, childhood traumas, getting picked last for kickball, grandpa's incontinence, weirdos showing you their weiner in the park, teenage acne, deaths in the family, bedwetting, inner children, hunger, loneliness, anger, fatigue, mean bosses, the decline of civilization, or the touching pathos and hypochondria and emotional dependence that permeates most drunks.

I care about abstinence. Not placing alcoholic beverages in the mouth.
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Old 06-07-2017, 08:15 AM
  # 64 (permalink)  
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Haha! I love your posts Greenwood! You tell it like it is!

I call it AVRT too and agreed that the only thing that matters is not pouring alcohol down our throats.
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Old 06-07-2017, 09:05 AM
  # 65 (permalink)  
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This is a post from Terminally Unique. It seems AVRT is not CBT/REBT. For REBT in the post, also read CBT; because after this post he went on to say that it also applied to CBT, in addition to REBT.

"There is a reason that the REBT folks split off from Rational Recovery and started SMART recovery when AVRT finally matured.

AVRT violates practically all of the REBT axioms. There is the absolutist perfectionism (ie, the Big Plan), recognizing the Beast as a rational entity, as opposed to an irrational belief, the (I/It) split, and finally, the concept of moral judgment.

In REBT, nothing is ever just plain wrong, in the moral sense, whereas in AVRT, the addictive voice is an immoral proposition. Also, with AVRT, you don't change your thinking or dispute it, as with REBT. Instead, you recognize the addictive voice, and then you objectify it as ego-alien (not you).

I have watched taped REBT sessions with addicted people conducted by Albert Ellis, as well as taped AVRT sessions, and read books on the subject, and they are worlds apart. There was a debate between Albert Ellis and Jack Trimpey in 1994, and Ellis acknowledged that AVRT is indeed a separate discipline. Since he invented REBT, he should know."
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:19 AM
  # 66 (permalink)  
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greenwood618

I love your posts, straight shooting, laser focus on all things AVRT/RR.( there are three metaphors in the preceding sentence, but they don't necessarily need to call into question the veracity of the sentiment described, do they ?).

Hunger and thirst I get, but what is the impulse to reproduction? I understand the urge to experience orgasm , but I assure you from its earliest stirrings , IT had nothing what so ever to do with procreation.
Without focusing on the pleasure aspect of the drive, you will be hard pressed to explain that urge as an evolutionary development to ensure the survival of the species and tie that to a like drive for intoxication via alcohol. Alcohol production and purposeful consumption emerged long after any survival benefits of orgasm.

The title of OP is oxymoronic, and only makes sense metaphorically.

As to denying ' the seed of immorality, reprehensible behavior within you ' ? how do you get that from what anyone said, without pseudo-psycho-babbling?

A barking beast is not a metaphor for an urge for intoxication ??
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:12 PM
  # 67 (permalink)  
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It is hard to make much sense out of what you are saying. Perhaps try to pick one point, your best one, and stick with it.

However, I would say you and anyone would be hard pressed to find any scientific authority in the field of human reproduction who would dispute that the procreative impulse is classified as a survival drive. But fine, it is superfluous to my point, so you can throw it out and I am still right.

Second, it is not a metaphor by your overbroad definition.

The Beast is the name given to the perverted survival drive that seeks gratification through alcohol consumption. Bear in mind that naming something doesn't make it a metaphor. Please keep that topmost in the brain for now.

We name the constellation of physical and mental conditions that result in the bodily demand for food "hunger." That does not mean hunger is a metaphor for those conditions. We use "thirst" in the the same way.

By your definition, the word hospital is a metaphor for the large building where sick people go. "Person" is a metaphor for the carbon-based life forms of humanoid construction. "Computer" is a metaphor for the machine I am typing on.

They are not metaphors. They are names of things.

Now if I were to say, "Greenwood618's Doberman Pinscher was louder than Jack Trimpey's Beast today," that would be a metaphor.
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:42 PM
  # 68 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post
You all are nicing this up to avoid what you perceive to be an unpleasant reality, that the seed of immoral, reprehensible behavior is within you. It sounds like colossal defense mechanism - the Beast itself barking via the AV.
You made me chuckle, Greenwood. How you think you know what's in anyone else's head, or have any answers for anyone but yourself, I don't know. I hope you find a kind of peace someday, I sure didn't find it until I stopped looking at the world in black and white and stopped thinking I had everyone else's answers in addition to my own.
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:59 PM
  # 69 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post
The Beast is the name given to the perverted survival drive that seeks gratification through alcohol consumption. Bear in mind that naming something doesn't make it a metaphor. Please keep that topmost in the brain for now.
Now I'm really confused. I thought the Beast brain was in the base of the brain (joke)
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:09 PM
  # 70 (permalink)  
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met·a·phor

noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

That's the definition I had in mind. I agree hunger and thirst are not metaphors.
I didn't intend to make an argument that they were. I do not think that 'reproductive impusle' fits into the same category.
Hunger and thirst are experienced phenotypically and satisfying them promotes the survival of the individual.

Sexual arousal and its satisfaction via orgasm promotes the happiness and well being of the individual , but is not a survival drive in the same sense.

Dehydration and under nourishment will lead to death of the individual, but a frustrated sexual urge is not fatal.

Lumping them together is a form of metaphor or a mischaracterization.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:15 PM
  # 71 (permalink)  
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I would argue that the sex drive is one of our most powerful drives. But maybe that's just me? It is 100% a drive that all animals have. If we don't procreate we don't survive. If something is alive it is progammed to reproduce.

Greenwood I think your posts are awesome and spot on!
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:16 PM
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We are just smart monkeys who created birth control so sex can just be for fun but the rest of nature ends up with babies.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:17 PM
  # 73 (permalink)  
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Lumping things together does not meet the definition of metaphor.

However, on reconsideration, naming the perverted survival drive that seeks alcoholic intoxication, Beast, is a metaphor.

What I am attempting to portray is that the concept is not a contrivance, an illustration designed to exaggerate the circumstance as an exercise of emphasis.
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:39 PM
  # 74 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post

What I am attempting to portray is that the concept is not a contrivance, an illustration designed to exaggerate the circumstance as an exercise of emphasis.
I hear you, I just don't agree. That's not my experience, anyway. For those who experience the Beast as a real phenomenon, it is not a metaphor. For those who do not, and instead, created the idea of a Beast to separate rational thinking from irrational cravings and the twisted messages we tell ourselves about those cravings, it is a metaphor.

Part of what I'm picking up is misunderstandings with debate between some who seem to be kind of "purists" about AVRT (those who know it well and adhere to it wholeheartedly), and those like myself who are not entirely convinced. I make associations about mindfulness, CBT (which is not exactly the same as Ellis's REBT), RR, SMART, AA, etc. I'm not saying RR is CBT, I'm just saying all of these approaches overlap, and elements of CBT seem to tie them together.

CBT:

Activating event or thought (could be the Beast - or not)
Behavior resulting from A
Consequence of the behavior

One could say that recognizing the Beast is essentially questioning one's thoughts (which are events) in order to choose a different behavior. That is very much CBT thinking. REBT adds emotion to the mix, and for good reason, I think. Thoughts lead to emotions which lead to behaviors which lead to consequences... Reality Therapy, to add another example, is less linear and focuses on the interplay between acting, thinking, feeling, and physiology..

And there are subtle differences between drives, urges, cravings, compulsions, rational choices, etc... These are not metaphors, but calling any of them a Beast seems to be, which Greenwood already pointed out.
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:49 PM
  # 75 (permalink)  
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When it comes to quitting for good and remaining permanently and securely abstinent, there are no degrees and there is no mixing methods.

Everyone permanently and securely abstinent does it the self help route via a powerful burst of self determination, recognizing the desire for alcohol as alien and separating that desire from the mature self.

AVRT is simply a formalized lesson plan that summarizes and condenses that ages old process and decision-making matrix.

People can say lots of things - I did it with support groups, I attribute it to Eastern spiritual codes, the Frankenpanzer spatula hypnotized my uvula.

In all cases, with or despite any or all of that, the permanently and securely abstinent apply the principles of AVRT, even if they don't know it or won't admit it or attribute their abstinence to other factors.
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:23 PM
  # 76 (permalink)  
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Wow. And when the next person comes along, who is as much a zealous follower as you are, states that there are no degrees or mixing methods, and that every single "securely" abstinent person must find a higher power and work the steps and attend meetings indefinitely, the rest are dry drunks, what makes that person any less right than you? After all, he does have millions of people agreeing with him.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:01 PM
  # 77 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post
When it comes to quitting for good and remaining permanently and securely abstinent, there are no degrees and there is no mixing methods.

Everyone permanently and securely abstinent does it the self help route via a powerful burst of self determination, recognizing the desire for alcohol as alien and separating that desire from the mature self.

AVRT is simply a formalized lesson plan that summarizes and condenses that ages old process and decision-making matrix.

People can say lots of things - I did it with support groups, I attribute it to Eastern spiritual codes, the Frankenpanzer spatula hypnotized my uvula.

In all cases, with or despite any or all of that, the permanently and securely abstinent apply the principles of AVRT, even if they don't know it or won't admit it or attribute their abstinence to other factors.
I agree, wholeheartedly.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:32 PM
  # 78 (permalink)  
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The word pleasure has been used in this thread only three times. First, appropriately, by zen in post 12; second, incidentally, by zero in post 16; and thirdly, dismissively, by dwtbd in post 66. That's only one time appropriately in regards to what is, in fact, driving this WHOLE divided self internal struggle that AVRT solves so quickly with the Big Plan. Pleasure seeking. Deeeep pleasure seeking. Permanently ended with the Big Plan. It's gone forever for YOU. YOU will NEVER feel that wonderful buzz, ever again. Gee, what a loss.

Only humans "know" that sort of pleasure acheivement means survival. I believe that all non-human life engages in habituated pleasure seeking only because it feels good and NOT because they decide "I want to live longer". Also, not getting those pleasures can grow into a pain, so the pangs of hunger lead to more intensive pleasure seeking. Pleasure over pain is the driver. Life over death is the 2 billion year old consequence.

Aside: There's a new theory that the P i s s Shivers is the leftover of the earliest known experience of pleasure known to life. Microbes in the sea, when they evacuate, will need to get away from their own waste. So, the shiver to squirm away to a cleaner part of the sea. Ahh, feels good. I also got that shiver when I would take a nice swallow of my first scotch on the rocks of the day. "Ahh, feels good."

The discriminating diet of people within a swamp of invented products is an extremely modern phenomenon compared to the experience of pleasure that has literally driven life for billions of years. To shrink down the scale, invention and discrimnation has occurred only in the last sixty seconds compared to the pleasure seeking that has been habituated over the preceeding year. Ironically, that scale also applies to how fast a human can use his/her discrimnation to end a habituated pleasure seeking that has gone on for a year or more. Sixty seconds to make a Big Plan really sink in.

And, of course, Recognizing the Addictive VOICE is simply the ideal Technique to make it easy. I capitalize VOICE because language IS what our conscious mind uses to deliberate and plan. And that is what makes these forums so useful. It puts into a timeless record thoughts that can be Recognized, reRecognized, and rereRecognized for just what they are in AVRT terms. It can be language from someone as simply chemically dependent and looking for excuses to keep drinking/using, someone who is addicted and trying to figure out how to quit in our crazy RGM/ATI society, someone as a common teetotaler with a Big Plan who is altruistically staying here to help others, someone's personal Beast's bark, the Institutional Addictive Voice, or just someone who stumbled into this subforum and is wondering what the heck is going on here.
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Old 06-07-2017, 08:47 PM
  # 79 (permalink)  
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Please continue to keep this thread civil. RR and SMART have the same origins and utilize some of the same tools. There are many reasons for the breakoff and not all are listed above. Nasty words were said at that time, and no reason to drag up decades of old drama. Before SMART broke off to become a non-profit Alber Ellis actually wrote a foreword to one of Tempsy's books.
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Old 06-08-2017, 04:09 AM
  # 80 (permalink)  
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Addiction is a really interesting subject and discussions are a great way to learn about AVRT but it's also a little bit like walking up stairs: if you think too much about what you're doing you're more likely to trip up. Once you know how to do it you get better results just relaxing, trusting your body to always put your feet down in the right places, and you can be confident that you won't fall.

We know that it's more than just an interesting, or not so interesting, topic to debate. A summary I've read here that really helped me is "make your Big Plan to never drink again, set your confidence level arbitrarily at 100%, recognise all self-doubt as the AV itself and you'll do fine." Most of us here I guess have tried it and it works so to anyone new here, try it!
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