Nonsensical

Effing love this.

JeffreyAK

I think people who tend to gain personal power through other people and human relationships, benefit from stronger relationships with people, particularly people who have accomplished things they want to accomplish. People who are more self-centered will prefer to rely more on themselves and their learning abilities, and people who tend towards sociopathy will want to go it alone and even shun external relationships. Different strokes, everyone is different, and it's independent of addiction recovery, it's who we are. If a network-focused person wants to learn to paint, say, she'll join a painting class. A self-focused person would get a book and learn on her own. It's not binary, of course, there's a spectrum. There was an interesting interview with Tom Horvath on this topic, related to addiction recovery, https://www.thefix.com/where-should-...-recovery-come, though he does seem to fall into the binary trap. In my experience, the people on the extremes tend to be the most vocal and certain, but most of us use some combination of "power sources", if you like, and would feel lost if we lost either our self-directing intellects or our human networks.

MesaMan

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^^^ On Greenwood618's germane question of 'would you ever drink again', I've contemplated some imaginary situation like being on the proverbial Deserted Island when a Case of Macallan 25 Year old Single Malt washes up. Would I partake? Truthfully: No. No interest any more. This is not a consequence of engaging in Prehistoric Man Deities, or relying on anyone else/a Group Dynamic to determine *my* Behavior.

This old, imagined Conundrum of RR being the act of 'going it alone' is so ingrained, I rarely counter it anymore. I questioned early on the 'Assumptions' of what it takes to sober up, but not because I secretly believe I'm Terminally Unique. Or, a Sociopath. I know what works for me. Someone telling me to shut up/sit down/and that some Group Collective knows what best for me would have had me in the Parking Lot and starting my Truck before the Door slammed behind me.

I very much enjoy helping Folks I meet at the Dog Park, and tossing out some Insights on Alcoholic Thinking. Without intending to, I've become a bit of a Common Sense Guru on such matters. So, that's my kinda helping out ad hoc. Further, what I've noticed is that there's a whole lot of Inventory taking by Folks who claim to not do it. I.e., whether my Methods - solely for me - 'work' or not. 'Free Advice Is Worth Every Penny Paid', as I like to say re: their unsolicited Opinions.

I quit. Found SR. Read the RR Slides on line, which gave my POV structure. End of Drinking. Forever. The Common Core, here; irrespective of Program: I was ready to quit. Like-minded Folks who are Sober for 2 or 10 or 30 Years are not around Forums. I meet 'em. A Boatload of them. They're out doing it: Living Sober without a second thought! All I ever wanted to emulate sans Program Leg Shackles...
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GerandTwine

When I read here that people who "prefer to rely more on themselves and their learning abilities ... tend towards sociopathy" and do not get as much "benefit from stronger relationships with people", I realize we must have gotten close to a raw nerve of the Institutional Addictive Voice (IAV)

When stripped down to their essence, the Recovery Group Movement and the Addiction Treatment Industry can be summed up in the two sentences brought into question by the OP - namely, "You will never get sober by simply deciding not to drink" and "defeating your addiction requires building a substantial support network". These ideas indicate blatant institutionalized disregard for addicted people. And disregard for other people is the definition of sociopathy.

Any decent regard for a person seeking information on how to overcome an addiction must clearly, first and foremost be responded to with teaching directly to the problem, unencumbered by extraneous personal belief systems of the professional*, and how to succeed at taking the pure stand alone Big Plan is the most direct unencumbered way. History proves this.

AVRT makes your ability to succeed at taking the Big Plan - "I will never drink/drug again." - scientifically and logically crystal clear. AVRT is not a belief system. I don't have to believe in AVRT any more than I have to believe in BJRT (Blue Jellybean Recognition Technique). One either separates them out or doesn't. The IAV for BJRT would be the Institutionalized Blue Jellybean (IBJ), when you would be forced to sort out BJ's with blue color filters slipped into your line of vision. That's how prevalent the IAV is in our society. The IAV is a whole thinking filter that has been imposed upon our general attitudes towards addiction. It can be unlearned, but that can take a little bit of time.

For an Addiction Treatment Industry professional to NOT inform a customer about the option of simply taking the pledge and learning how to make it stick is the height of institutionalized sociopathy. Basic disregard for people - addicted people - for the sake of personal gain. What other reasons could there be to start addicted people off at the lowest level of engagement of personal responsibility in a never ending struggle seeking outside help or disputing irrational beliefs**? Shouldn't people be allowed to live their lives, just minus the addiction? If future counseling is self-selected, great, but the very nature of addiction counseling means it is extremely difficult for many counselors to unlearn the IAV. I think it's better to avoid addiction counselors, unless one really wants to practice a lot of AVRT.


*This includes but is not limited to beliefs in the disease theory of powerlessness (can't name the group here), the disease theory of irrational self-talk (REBT)**, and/or the goal that everyone over 21 ought to enjoy two or three drinks every day (the liquor industry and its paid scientists/lobyists/authors***).

**Forty years ago Maxie Maulstby, Jr., M.D., Director of the Rational Behavior Therapy Center, University of Kentucky College of Medicine, wrote "A Million Dollars for Your Hangover", 1978, which still stands as the best example of using the disease theory of irrational self-talk (REBT) as a "New Self-Help Alcoholic Treatment Method". One of its goals is to consider drinking again six months later if you pass Dr. Maultsby's evaluation.

***I recently spoke with an addictions psychiatrist who admitted having an ideal that EVERYONE would happily be drinking 2 or 3 drinks a day. That way the 2/3 of all alcohol sold that is being drunk by people drinking more than ten drinks a day would be distributed into the 1/2 of the population that drinks only two or three drinks per year. See this VERY illustrative and shocking chart and try to come up with a definition of "normal" drinker. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.072eb01d1d22

JeffreyAK

That's a cute juxtaposition of different parts of sentences I typed, welded together to say something I didn't actually say. Perhaps it's what you wanted to hear, I don't know, or perhaps I unintentionally struck some nerve, in which case I apologize for striking it.

GerandTwine

Sorry, that sounded like a summary of part of what you were trying to say.

Fusion

Oh my, this is a first, I've never been called a sociopath before! Yes, I did 'go it alone' when quitting alcohol, after the initial input from SR AVRTers. But crikey, because I'm a 'go it aloner' I'm branded a sociopath? Have you read the definition of a sociopath? Ouch, it hurts, lol.

I just have to quietly laugh and smile. Prior to becoming addicted to alcohol, I had a wide social circle and was empathetic to others, often to my detriment. When I became addicted, I shunned and withdrew from my social network. Since stopping drinking forever (without an unecessary ongoing AV support or defence system - my alcohol seeking drive is well and truly powerless) I'm attempting to rebuild my social network and practise my empathy.

To accuse someone who has stopped drinking by 'going it alone' as being a sociopath, is ridiculous and for me, couldn't be further from the truth.

PS. I haven't welded your words, just quoted them verbatim.

JeffreyAK

Wow.

Greenwood618

Let's label this support function for what it really is - collective guilt. Spreading the blame.

Most people are unable to accept the horrors they have caused when bumbling around as chronic drinkers. Always causing problems, confused, in trouble, juveniles basically, whining all the time.

So it is crucial to the psyche for the group to bear the responsibility. "I didn't get enough support."

Or: "You didn't make a plan for enough support."

It is of course a smokescreen to shield each member of the group from the personal responsibility of their horrid actions while drunk.

As if strangers on a website saying, "You can do this, I am with you," means anything. Just look at the horrors on the other sections for proof how well this works.

AVRT however exposes the truth. The truth of the nastiness and the selfishness and the darkness. No one else can expiate that. Only the drinker by permanent abstinence.

Fusion

I believe the issue is 'ongoing' support for quitting alcohol. I'll be eternally grateful to the kind people on SR who supported me last year, whom I probably owe my life to. As a consequence of their support and guidance, I found a method to stop drinking.

Once permanently abstinent, I no longer require their support. In turn, I hang around SR, hoping to guide someone else towards permanent abstinence, as my SR mentors did for me. I may never achieve that aim, but I live in hope.

P.S. MesaMan .

Morning Glory

Discussions in the Secular Connections forum do not include discrediting another recovery program or treatment method. This is what keeps the forum safe for our secular members. We all know what and who you are talking about even if you don't name it by name.
12 step topics are off topic in this forum.

Wholesome

That's a frustrating rule..... there has to be a deprogramming from conventional programs with AVRT and this is where we discuss AVRT. Those messages need to be questioned and inspected for AV, yet we can't talk about it.

JeffreyAK

Perhaps. But, who are we to pass judgement and take the inventory of others? Because we think we have a better way, and everyone who doesn't see our shining light is a poor fool being manipulated by some abstract "IAV"? Isn't that sort of dogmatic thinking exactly what Trimpey rails against, in other contexts? But it's the same thing, just twisted around to a different perspective.

If people benefit from support groups, secular or otherwise, more power to 'em. If they don't, more power to 'em. There is no one single best approach, and I think there is wisdom and peace and, yes, serenity, in accepting the truth of this.

Me, I'm long recovered, and I have no need to attend groups, though I very occasionally go to a medical treatment outpatient drop-in group so if I ever do feel the need for support, I will feel comfortable just going. I'm glad I'm not someone who feels compelled to attend group meetings regularly forever, or else relapse, but I'm certainly not going to criticize other people who do feel that way. They have their way, I have mine. As long as they're happy with their situation, as I am with mine, it's all good.

fini

Tatsy,
Saying sociopaths tend to prefer to " go it alone" is not at all equivalent to saying that those who go it alone are sociopaths.

Carlito61

I would have to agree with the sales brochure which states that "You will never get sober by simply deciding not to drink".

Isn't it true that anything that takes time and perseverance to accomplish cannot be done by merely deciding that you will do it? If I decide to learn to speak Chinese, at what point have I accomplished that?

I do believe that once you decide to never drink again, the hard part is over. However, for me at least, there are daily decisions I have to make in order to avoid drinking.

"Defeating your addiction requires building a substantial support network."- well, I don't know what that means and I don't think I have that. It sounds expensive, whatever it is.

GaryB1

lol, if all I had spoken was Chinese as my first language since I was small, decided not to speak it, then wanted to speak it again, I don't think I would have to learn it.

Deciding to stop doing something that is unnatural and harmful, CAN be done by merely deciding to stop doing it. Once the Big Plan of AVRT is made, the decision about never drinking again is made, there are no daily deciscions on the matter to BE made!

jazzfish

Deciding to stop doing something that is harmful is actually the natural reaction. I never became addicted to putting my hand on a hot burner because my brain agree with itself when it thought "Ow, don't do that again!" It is a very quick decision about which action leads to the desired consequence.

Fusion

Hi Jeffrey and Fini, I'm in the UK. So I want to explain that here in the UK, a sociopath isn't someone who has a character trait of tending 'to go it alone'; but used as a highly offensive insult, only beaten by its close relation, psychopath.

In the UK a 'Sociopath' is a Mental Disorder, where the sociopath's characteristics include, no regard for right or wrong, violence towards others and their property, no guilt or remorse for their behaviour, persistentl lies, deceit and exploiting of others - they usually pursue a life of criminal activity and make up the largest part of the prison population.

Sometimes, they avoid criminality and instead, display their character traits by callousness and manipulation of people; in so doing, they often achieve high office.

fini

hi Tatsy,
the 'tendency to go it alone' is one tendency of a/many sociopaths. it wasn't mentioned here as the defining characteristic of sociopathy.
and it is false reasoning to conclude from there that anyone who has a tendency to "go it alone" is therefore a sociopath.


and no-one here suggested you are a sociopath.

Fusion

Hi Fini, I don't agree with your above post, it makes no sense given the previous dialogue. A tendency to go it alone is not a defining characteristic of sociopathy in the UK, as I explained above. Quite the opposite, they're often highly socialable and charismatic.

I explained my reaction to Jeffrey's post, now I'm over it. I didn't realise you appointed yourself as Jeffrey's spokesperson, after he resorted to a one word response to me. I do hope you get over this too, let it go, as I had when I posted.

Fini, you're continuing the diversion from the OP subject matter (as you now know, I started the diversion because I felt insulted, given UK understanding of sociopathy).

Please, let's return to the subject matter of the OP. Fini, do you have any personal thoughts, whatsover, regarding the OP. I'm sure you do, as a person who's worked the steps, as I have.