No Goodbye AVRT People
 

I started here a few weeks ago by saying hello.
Now it's goodbye. You remember that film Fight Club? The first rule of Fight Club is that you don't talk about Fight Club? lol
Like Trimpey
"Stay away from recovery groups of all kinds lol

While the pure AVRT reading on Secular Connections has been very informative, I think I have gotton all I can out of it.
But the detrimental side of the "recovery movement" comes into it a lot if you read around on the full site and I don't need this. So many things I disagree with even on Secular Connections, even on some of the AVRT threads.
"Intergrating the Reptile" is just one thing on the AVRT discussion thread that disgusted me.
Don't know if this post will pass the censoring here. If it does..good luck and good life people :)
If you practice AVRT you cannot mix disciplines with other "recovery methods"..it taints the message

Hi Gary, I"m sorry to read you're leaving, because your posts were always very informative indeed. Very best wishes and please take care. :grouphug:

So sorry to see you go Gary.
You have been so helpful to me and you explain things in such a clear way, I will really miss your posts.

I hope you stay strong in the difficult times that I know you have ahead of you and once again thank you.

Gary, I recently wrote a 'goodbye SR post' I was so very upset. But, after reflecting, I decided to rise above negativism and accusations and to continue to post here in Secular, where everyone is always so kind, positive, upbeat, patient and informative. It would be great if you stayed on SR.

He does say that, but RR is aware that AVRT is being discussed on SR, since a couple people have sent them 'thank you' e-mails. They have decided to allow this, apparently, which they would absolutely never allow if it were done as part a 'for fee' professional arrangement. They purposefully deny use of AVRT to the addiction treatment industry, so that AVRT remains a viable method of inexpensive and independent recovery.

Like yourself, the RR folks are probably concerned about AVRT being misrepresented, however.

A discussion forum is an ideal setting for AVRT discussion, IMO, because it allows a certain amount of back-and-forth, which is necessary for catching the Beast in action, and because it also saves a history of past discussions, which never really 'expire'. People can learn from past AVRT discussions, if they take the time to read through them.

The people on the main forums mean well, in that they wish to help, but unless they read up on it, they won't necessarily understand what AVRT is about, and may contradict its basic tenets. It is simply unrealistic to expect that they will provide solid advice on AVRT proper. My advice to those who wish to learn AVRT is to post their questions in this forum, rather than on the main forums.

There are a couple of people who know what AVRT is about, but since it is different from what they are comfortable with, they continue to try to re-frame it as something else. I won't name any names, because they must know who they are if they keep doing it, and their objections do provide an opportunity to properly explain AVRT.

I certainly tend to agree with this, although I also think that there are certain unique insights into the nature of the Addictive Voice that only AVRT provides, and which can be useful to anyone, even if they don't use AVRT proper as the center-piece of their recovery.

The problem with mixing AVRT proper with other approaches is that AVRT is based on the certainty principle, and will identify uncertainty and self-doubt as the AV itself suggesting more drinking or using. In contrast, other approaches tend to be based on the uncertainty principle, whereby drinking or using has to be actively prevented from happening.

The axioms are different, and that is just the way it is.

That said, although I do like to see additional solid input on AVRT on the forums, such as yours, RR actively encourages people to move on from their recovery. I wish you well with your endeavors.

Thank you for your input, sir.

Yes Tatsy, you are right. There are a handful of people here who absolutely know where I am and where I am coming from .
Who have read the book, which others may disagree with, but I do see as an instruction manual. Some people may think "It's not that easy" But we know it is that easy.
There is a mainstream here saying "No .A book a context cannot cure you, you need to be tied for life..and we know it's not true, stay dependent stay tied.
But it's always hard swimming against the main stream. People saying it's HARD HARD HARD. And you do AVRT and it's NOT hard at all!!

But then people take bits and pieces of AVRT like the Addictive Voice,,that was RR who coined that, then they add it to other philosophies which dilute and change it's original meaning.
The idea of the AV came from RR. Then when the originators of them split, it split to RR and Smart.
Smart came up that you needed techinques to deal with the stressers of life..that would stop you drinking.
Smart came up with disputing the AV
Smart came up with ABC's
And CBA
RR first came up with the AVRT..Addictive voice recognition technique . No one heard of the Addictive Voice till Trimpey coined it..since every "recovey *****" uses it
But NOT in the right contextes

Hmm this is interesting.. I haven't heard of such a technique but honestly I've come to a place of total oppenness to any kind fo recovery... I can use all the help I can get!!

Hi Vig...read through all the AVRT discussion threads and any avrt thread and you will know what it is :)

Gary, I do know where you're coming from and like you, I stopped drinking, forever, solely due to learning AVRT. BUT, I encountered it on the Internet and discounted it, whilst struggling with mainstream, it works if you work it. Only I did work it, diligently, to no avail. I washed up on the shore of SR and learnt of AVRT right here in secular, and because of the replies I received to a thread I started and my reading of the main AVRT thread, plus the AVRT website and book - I'm now securely abstinent and free to live my life, positively and with growth and happiness, as I wish - alcohol free.

The only reason I'm still here, is because somebody else might land on the SR shore as I did. What then? What if there aren't any AVRT guides still here? I have no doubt whatsoever that I'd be on the final slide into the abyss, where it not for SR, SC and the AVRT practitioners.

You have to remember, though, that one of the prime functions of the Addictive Voice, which is subjectively experienced as the self, is to grossly exaggerate the difficulty and suffering that ending the addiction will cause. Whatever insights people may have after learning AVRT and putting it to use, you cannot compare that to the situation beforehand, prior to the breakdown of their Addictive Voice.

Once again, it is a prime function of the AV to create that feeling of difficulty. Consider also that it took Jack Trimpey many years to synthesize AVRT into a coherent method. He had a rudimentary understanding, as set forth in the short "Voices" chapter of The Small Book, but AVRT proper came about only after he talked to a lot of other people who also self-recovered, and added their insights to his own initial understanding.

This is true, but the Addictive Voice is also universal among addicted people, and it has been given various names over the years. However, the AV is not usually recognized as the prime mover of addition, as in AVRT, and is generally only considered a symptom. Neither is the AV explicitly defined, as in AVRT, which makes recognition more difficult.

The recently-defunct WQD forums maintained a link to the AVRT crash course since very early on, and use of the shorthand 'AV' became common there long before it did on Sober Recovery. Without the equivalent of a Terminally Unique to provide an example and framework for AVRT discussion, however, nothing remotely resembling the depth of what we see here on SR ever took shape on WQD.

Something to consider.

Algorithm, thank you for your considered reply. I have taken time to really think about what you are saying. You do make a lot of sense, as does Tatsy.
I think I am being very childish here, and throwing a strop because a lot of people won't think the way I do lol.
I just get frustrated when I see people struggling and think..bloody hell..it's it's not that hard, YOU are making it hard for yourself and then I see people helping people make it harder than it needs to be!
I think I need to chill lol
Algorithm, you are totally right, without the equivalent of a Terminally Unique, AVRT on here would not have been understood in such depth on here. You though have more than taken over the role he had. Not to say other people haven't contributed greatly, there are a few AVRT people here who understand it perfectly and give excellent advice, but they tend to post very rarely.
As I have reacted so strongly to what I consider to be anti-RR ideas on here. I am now wondering if it is not the AV saying "Whats wrong, you are afraid to meet other opinions head on and hold strong?" lol
Well I'm not afraid, and Im not bothered by the PMs saying Im wrong. I think I want to stay with you little band of truth givers after all. :)

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Glad to see you're still with us, GaryB1.
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GaryB1, hope you do stay or at least stop back and do fly overs (The B1 reminded me of a USAF aircraft) dropping truth bombs and virtual leaflets like manna from heaven akin to a Berlin airlift.
The strafing from the AV's ensconced in the ism camps is just pesky and expected blow back. But given the forum venue, posts will remain for a very long time and are probably viewed by many who never comment. I'd like to think spreading awareness and the ideas of RR/AVRT will never cause any harm , and just the awareness itself was a godsend for me.
wish you well and hope to see you around

I am so pleased that you are staying Gary and I look forward to reading your posts.

Thanks peoples :)
dwbtd I wish my user name was as romantic as a bomber . My wife and I went camping near her old uncles place once. He is an old English west country farmer. At the camp fire one night someone offered me a can of lager and he shouted up "Don't be giving Gary a tinny, he be one o em halyikholics" lol

Haha that's pretty funny Gary be one!

Yes! Gary, I'm so glad you're staying, having reflected and reconsidered.

"Truth is generally the best vindication against slander". Abraham Lincoln.

Hi Gary,
I am self-recovered and spent many years with a rudimentary understanding of this technique before ever even hearing that it was a thing and had a name. That's because although Trimpey coined these terms, he didn't "make this up" any more than Bill W made up the steps. Trimpey compiled info, and tweaked, and made this method cleaner and more iron-clad, more user friendly.

If you know the method and communicate well, then why not interact here? We don't need to fear recovery groupthink. Being involved in an internet forum doesn't mean you're not being true to AVRT.

Good!!!!
 

What a great thread :)

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GaryB1 ~

I'd like to toss out a few more reasons to stick around here. I read here much more than I post anymore because I'm out living Sober and Recovered. RV Trailer Camping and taking pictures, especially...

The Forum 'Experience', that you're undergoing, is something that initially didn't suit me, either. In fact, I Bookmarked a Website on Logical Errors, and would occasionally post a link to a germane example so that flat-out distortions didn't go unchallenged. 'Tell a lie often enough, and it becomes the Truth', eh? The ole Numbers Game distortion: a Program must be 'the best' because it has so many Adherents. I'm thinking to myself: 'Hey, Folks, we're not choosing a Hamburger Chain here. We're settling in on the optimum Recovery Program for Individuals'. If a particular 'Leading' Hamburger doesn't suit me, I could not care less how many Folks swear 'it's the best'. Further, I couldn't support this sort of trivializing re: Life/Death Recovery Programs whereby you pick one like it's some Popularity Contest in High School. My formerly-sotted Brain still works fine, and is my most important Resource. It still provides Critical Thinking Skills to choose the 'best' Recovery Program. For me.

1+ Year in for me [early 2015], my Issues became Social Setting-based. Because I live with an Active Pot & Alcohol Addict, there was initial pressure to 'have fun' at Dinners where everyone else was Drinking. Well, to quote a Bumper Sticker from Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream: 'If It's Not Fun, Why Do It?' That became my Mantra, and I gingerly set down increasingly-firm Boundaries in this ~40 Year Marriage. These emerging Boundaries were based on poor Social Setting experiences. My Wife can go alone and Drink, or can abstain with me in tow. I need a supportive Partner IF I'm to endure sloshy Drunks for any time. We leave when I've had enough. Period. I'm not trying to change her. I'm busy changing me. Serenity First.

'Sobriety Is Not For Sissies', as I like to say. We all have to get on in a Drinking Culture. Dinners. Sports Events. Concerts. We've each got to find our own Coping Strategies without feeling as if we sold ourselves out; Teeth grinding away. I realized that the Model for getting what I could out of 'Net Forums was a larger parallel - a Rehearsal, if you will - to living Sober in a Drinking Culture. And, I'm an experienced Moderator on 4 other Forum/Social Media Pages. I had to adapt to being a Recovered Person via RR/AVRT which is also a 'Minority' Program vis-a-vis more 'popular' Programs. My own Conclusion? Detach, and get used to being an 'Outsider'. In a Drinking Culture and in on-line settings. It's like a double whammy that I initially didn't see coming. I thought that 'just' living Sober in a Drinking Culture was all there was to master. Nope. I also had to adapt to Sober Culture.

My main point for you [and Tatsy] is to consider using the Forum Experience as a sort of Boot Camp Training for Sober Life going forward. We right here are all 'Minority' Sober People using a 'Minority' Recovery Method. I don't know of any way to speed up this Process. You just have to slog through it, and skip the GroupThink IF there's no Truth in it for you.

Through Insights from a smart Pal who used to train on 'People Types' at a huge Telecom Company, I learned we Introverts recharge when we're quiet and thinking. Being in Crowd settings, or forced 'Sharing', can be draining. Square Peg -> meet Round Hole. We are not something 'deficient' or 'outside the mainstream' to be changed via being forced into uncomfortable Meetings. THAT could lead to Relapse [for me] early on far more than me going about just being my good ole Introverted Self. This Self-Realization was huge for me, and I was already several Years into RR and serenely Recovered by the time my Pal shared this with me.

Now, I just chuckle at the assertion that Programs like RR are 'going it alone'. I've wondered if a Member putting forth this non-Truth realized the irony of asserting this on this Forum with more Members and valued Experiences than could EVER fit into any Meeting Room? I connect daily with Folks here via on-line methods that work for this Introvert. Why on Earth would I care about other methods that don't work for me, or increase my Stress Level [or, dreaded Boredom while rehashing Drunk-a-Logs]? On-line Meetings are another option, of course, for those of us on the move.

Choose and refine your Recovery Path for you, my Friend: the only Sober Person that matters.
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