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Old 04-04-2017, 02:38 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sunshine72 View Post
Thx Tasty I have owned this book for over 3 years now. I started to read it and then never wanted to drink again and that lasted for 18 months. But I didn't stay vigilant.
Regarding this "didn't stay vigilant" explanation for your drinking again after the desire to drink returned, you may want to read the first part of the post that Tatsy quoted, and some of the responses that follow it as well.

Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
People typically view the AV as their nemesis, a specter of bad times to come. They live their lives in full reverse, fleeing the Beast as they would a dreaded foe. They are often elated that they haven’t had any AV for a while, and live in a state of false security based upon the idea that it is good to not hear an enemy stalking from behind.

This is not the best approach to take, though, since it puts you on the defensive, and you need to go on the offensive instead. Consider that the AV is actually a sign of robust health, and that therefore you can welcome the AV into your life as a natural function of a healthy, human body.
Welcome the AV -

Although we passively screen our thinking for AV, we don't "stay vigilant" in AVRT, either, hoping that the big, bad Beast doesn't come back to pounce after doing push-ups in the parking lot. Instead, we welcome the AV as a sign of health, knowing that, once recognized, we are good and safe from the Beast. This is part of our 100% threshold of confidence.

We don't need to look over our shoulder, because we know from the structural model that the Beast cannot run the peripherals (hands, feet, mouth), and that IT is a dependent, impotent creature, which must always appeal to us for sustenance. All self-doubt about perfect lifetime abstinence is simply AV -- the Beast barking away.
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Old 04-04-2017, 02:54 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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As I've said before, Algorithm, I do wish you'd make a compilation of posts from yourself and Terminally Unique. Your combined knowledge of RR AVRT is comprehensive and excellent.

I'm not talking about spoon feeding here, but simply organising a comprehensive compilation of posts, which are currently available on SR (scattered around threads) into a semblance of order: which I believe would benefit members, enormously.
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:12 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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My Beast is so dumb, it perked up a little just reading GaryB's post, lol.
Using AVRT that in itself is not a concern for Me, it used to be a red flag for my AV to waive "see, you felt that , ..guess the ball just started rolling , well good try maybe next time you'll get to the point where you won't ever feel that , but since you do now ..."
See IT will never figure out that I finally realize it is always Now, and since I don't drink , that means Now , any Now .
What a doofus
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:21 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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What can I say dwtbd, Im just a big Beast tease
I like being the tormentor much better than I liked being the tormented!
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:46 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
...I too, forsake food for alcohol, oh my, those were the horrible days. ...
Hi Tatsy,
"Forsook" is a real word your Beast doesn't want you to use.

Yup, I'm still out here. Not gonna let the Beast get away with anything.

I did let zenchaser's Beast slide by on several present tense kidnaps a few weeks ago, but no more.

GT
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Old 04-04-2017, 05:00 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Hey everyone. So I had a couple of moments in Cuba where I tangled with my beast. The first one I felt myself use the shifting technique, I actually had a beer in my hands and I felt myself move between my beast's very strong desire to drink it and my true self's desire to remain abstinent. I absolutely experienced what Trimpy called vertigo when I reached out and took it, the man offered it to me and I didn't even think about it. As I was standing there I was aware of the fact that I was doing the shifting technique and I allowed all the thoughts to happen, and with relief, I handed the beer off to my bf. It felt like a test and afterward my AV was quiet. IT popped up here and there..... for instance, my bf and I had spanish coffees, but his had alcohol and IT suggested that I should have a taste of his to see if it tasted better. Silly things like that.

Until Friday when I realized that I had accidentally already ingested alcohol by ordering that virgin cocktail that was no virgin. I'll be honest my beast got the better of me in that moment. I obviously need more practice or else I'm not doing it right because once that happened for a few minutes I was not in control or at least I didn't feel like I was. It did feel like my beast pounced on me. I recovered quickly and stopped but there was a moment where I was going to go balls to the wall. I can't get the moment off my mind..... I picked that drink back up and had some more of it. It kills me because I was feeling so good about staying sober and not white knuckling it. It wasn't like I went out to the store and bought myself a 6 pack and reversed my BP or sat down at the bar and ordered myself a drink. It was a mistake that I handled poorly for a minute.... but that split second decision meant something to me. *** ya know.

Once I come back to my senses my AV quieted right down again, there haven't been any real cravings. I didn't want to drink at the time of the incident and I don't want to now. But I don't want something like that to happen to me again. How do I protect myself? I know that that was a unique situation, being in a foreign country ordering virgin cocktails isn't going to happen again anytime soon. But what if the line between me and my beast gets blurred like that again?
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Old 04-04-2017, 08:30 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by zenchaser View Post
Hey everyone. So I had a couple of moments in Cuba where I tangled with my beast. The first one I felt myself use the shifting technique, I actually had a beer in my hands and I felt myself move between my beast's very strong desire to drink it and my true self's desire to remain abstinent. I absolutely experienced what Trimpy called vertigo when I reached out and took it, the man offered it to me and I didn't even think about it. As I was standing there I was aware of the fact that I was doing the shifting technique and I allowed all the thoughts to happen, and with relief, I handed the beer off to my bf. It felt like a test and afterward my AV was quiet. IT popped up here and there..... for instance, my bf and I had spanish coffees, but his had alcohol and IT suggested that I should have a taste of his to see if it tasted better. Silly things like that.

Until Friday when I realized that I had accidentally already ingested alcohol by ordering that virgin cocktail that was no virgin. I'll be honest my beast got the better of me in that moment. I obviously need more practice or else I'm not doing it right because once that happened for a few minutes I was not in control or at least I didn't feel like I was. It did feel like my beast pounced on me. I recovered quickly and stopped but there was a moment where I was going to go balls to the wall. I can't get the moment off my mind..... I picked that drink back up and had some more of it. It kills me because I was feeling so good about staying sober and not white knuckling it. It wasn't like I went out to the store and bought myself a 6 pack and reversed my BP or sat down at the bar and ordered myself a drink. It was a mistake that I handled poorly for a minute.... but that split second decision meant something to me. *** ya know.

Once I come back to my senses my AV quieted right down again, there haven't been any real cravings. I didn't want to drink at the time of the incident and I don't want to now. But I don't want something like that to happen to me again. How do I protect myself? I know that that was a unique situation, being in a foreign country ordering virgin cocktails isn't going to happen again anytime soon. But what if the line between me and my beast gets blurred like that again?
I know how frustrating it is to drink a little booze and not get a good buzz on. I can imagine how nice and familiar it felt with that nice warm feeling in the throat as it goes on down. "Yes! There it is again. That warmth before the beautiful assault of pleasure."

Your thread from yesterday on the alcoholism forum "No, gracias, no bebo" describes with a little more detail what you were thinking and feeling around your drinking some more alcohol. And it sounds to me like there's some real anger within you that "You might never drink again." And it is getting expressed in disguise as fear - fear that you can no longer act upon a "healthy urge" to get wasted on alcohol. Why tell your BF "I'm thinking of drinking it" with beer in hand? Why drink some more to get more warmth in the throat?

What do you think the answers to your 2 questions are?
How do you protect yourself?
What if the line gets blurred again?

When you finally decide to move from toying with the idea of the Big Plan to actually making the Big Plan (IF you ever decide to) and thereafter practice AVRT in real time, you will not act or feel the way you did with drinks in hand.

A person can only make the Big Plan for alcohol and drugs once - by definition of "never again". Basic logic. And, of course, it cannot be rescinded.

The Beast wants you to tangle with it. It wants you to believe that it is out in the parking lot doing pushups.

You do not seem to want to accept that you can easily take the upper hand towards your Beast. Like Neo when he first stopped the agents bullets in mid-air in the Matrix, you can instantly know what to do, and maybe even smile to yourself as you set the drink aside, again and again, without anxiety or fear.

The beauty of AVRT to me is the bald faced and gross intentionality of what it takes to get alcohol or drugs into my body. I have to choose to hold it two inches from my eyes, and one inch from my nose, and I have to choose to put it INTO my mouth, and even then, I HAVE to choose to swallow it. If I say I will never do that again, I know absolutely that it can't sneak up and happen unintentionally.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:16 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Lots of interesting points have been made.

The last few days I have been imagining buying alcohol, the anticipation of the "feeling" of the first few sips when I bring it home but have been shutting the thoughts down as I thought they were unhelpful but having read the above posts as I guess it is a type of shifting?

Another thing I do which is a bit of a worry is keep remembering good but not much bad stuff about drinking. I am making a very conscious effort to think of the horrible destructive addiction which has controlled my life for so very long and not to keep romanticising it back to those first few sips.
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:30 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Hi Kaily The purpose of shifting is it is an exercise in recognizing what are your thoughts and feelings and what are ITs thoughts and feelings on drinking, thus helping you to seperate you from IT.
When imagining using let the Beast come out, it will like the thoughts of using it will "remember" the pleasure. Then you "switch" to you , you allow yourself to be disgusted by the vile stuff that poisoned you and held you prisoner in a chemical jail.
This difference you feel in the two attitudes helps you differentiation yourself from IT. This makes it easier, when the AV strikes to recognize them as Beast thoughts and feeling not yours
It's not you that can't remember the bad stuff about drinking and romanticising the first few sips it is IT. Remember, the Beast is nothing but a perverted survival drive it has no higher thinking functions. IT uses your higher thinking functions through the AV. It will only use your higher thinking functions though, to get you to give IT the alcohol. So when the AV uses your memory, it will only pick out the bits of memory which will persuade you to drink.
IT will bring up all the pleasant memories of drinking. IT is hardly likely to persuade you to drink if it pulls forward the memories of you puking in the bed, feeling ill, thinking you are going to die and feeling helpless and pathetic through drinking is it? So IT only pulls forward the pleasant feelings of drinking.
YOU are the one who has the full picture of the aftermath of a binge at your recall.

Once you can separate you from IT you will know, any pleasant thoughts feeling or images of drinking are coming from IT and IT is biased towards alcohol so will never show you the full picture. IT will use any and all of your all mental facilities, but only with the intention of of showing drinking in a GOOD light. IT needs that alcohol. IT is a perverted survival drive, IT thinks your body needs it to survive. But IT is mistaken.
YOU know the full picture, the alcohol will kill you. At the very least it will take away your life while you are still living (shudder)

So shifting, isn't allowing yourself to wallow in the joys of drinking, it's an exercise in recognizing the split between you and IT
Once you have yourself and the Beast separated in your mind, recognising ITs voice, the AV is easy.
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Old 04-05-2017, 01:14 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I know how frustrating it is to drink a little booze and not get a good buzz on. I can imagine how nice and familiar it felt with that nice warm feeling in the throat as it goes on down. "Yes! There it is again. That warmth before the beautiful assault of pleasure."

Your thread from yesterday on the alcoholism forum "No, gracias, no bebo" describes with a little more detail what you were thinking and feeling around your drinking some more alcohol. And it sounds to me like there's some real anger within you that "You might never drink again." And it is getting expressed in disguise as fear - fear that you can no longer act upon a "healthy urge" to get wasted on alcohol. Why tell your BF "I'm thinking of drinking it" with beer in hand? Why drink some more to get more warmth in the throat?

What do you think the answers to your 2 questions are?
How do you protect yourself?
What if the line gets blurred again?

When you finally decide to move from toying with the idea of the Big Plan to actually making the Big Plan (IF you ever decide to) and thereafter practice AVRT in real time, you will not act or feel the way you did with drinks in hand.

A person can only make the Big Plan for alcohol and drugs once - by definition of "never again". Basic logic. And, of course, it cannot be rescinded.

The Beast wants you to tangle with it. It wants you to believe that it is out in the parking lot doing pushups.

You do not seem to want to accept that you can easily take the upper hand towards your Beast. Like Neo when he first stopped the agents bullets in mid-air in the Matrix, you can instantly know what to do, and maybe even smile to yourself as you set the drink aside, again and again, without anxiety or fear.

The beauty of AVRT to me is the bald faced and gross intentionality of what it takes to get alcohol or drugs into my body. I have to choose to hold it two inches from my eyes, and one inch from my nose, and I have to choose to put it INTO my mouth, and even then, I HAVE to choose to swallow it. If I say I will never do that again, I know absolutely that it can't sneak up and happen unintentionally.

Yes there was an immediate physical and emotional rush once I realized that I had unintentionally already had some alcohol and yes it made me want more and I did. Whether I had a lot or a little is immaterial, in that moment that was the decision that I made. That moment is everything. I had this fatalistic feeling, once I realized that I had drank it without knowing it was alcoholic, I felt everything was already ruined and I had lost my power of choice and it didn't seem separate from me, it was me. And it was familiar and for a few minutes I wanted to keep going, badly. You guys make it seem so easy. I'm not there yet, but I want to be, I really do. I did toy with thoughts of drinking in the lobby with that beer in hand, I even smelled it, part of me really wanted it, the part that is angry that the party is over forever, that is fearful. But I didn't drink it.

I'm not going to let that one moment define me and I'm still moving forward with my plan to not drink. I'm not going to forget it either. I'm going to learn from it so that if something like that happens again I can make the right decision. If anything it reaffirmed my commitment to sobriety, I don't want to be a slave to anything, especially something as useless and stupid as drinking.

And I don't think my beast is doing push ups in the parking lot haha that was something my therapist said to me and I was reminded of it.
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:07 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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GerandTwine, you're back!

I say, "welcome back".

IT says and feels " ".

Thank you for catching my Beast out. I remember writing 'forsaken food for alcohol' and didn't notice the wrong tense usage, ITs certainly wily.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:03 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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zenchaser
The decision is made once and the beast is put on notice forever.

When the guy with tray comes around , the beast will see him coming and the AV will say 'ok time to make a decision' , but You have already made the decision , the negotiations are over for good, no matter what, the answer is No. The AV, by definition , will always operate under the guise that the decision is negotiable, that's what it does.

Make a Big Plan knowing full well that the AV will always consider it negotiable( that is what it does), but knowing full well also that a BP means the negotiations ended the second you made it.

I think your AV has you convinced that you are in store for a long tortuous future of multiple instances of hoping you make the right decision and act on it.
The BP cuts the legs off that 'argument' when you realize you need only make the decision once. The BP means the battes have come to an end, and You ended them. You get to decide IT never gets ITs precious stuff.

IT will always see the guy with the tray as an opening, but You get to say that the decision has been made.

When you have made a BP and try a shifting exercise the squirming is from IT , you don't squirm and hope to come out on the 'right' side of the arugment or debate, you go in on the right side of it.

Make a BP , right now , your Beast won't like it and your AV will still say it's up for debate, but that's just what t'they' do. No worries, your BP can more than handle it.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:00 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post

I think your AV has you convinced that you are in store for a long tortuous future of multiple instances of hoping you make the right decision and act on it.

When you have made a BP and try a shifting exercise the squirming is from IT , you don't squirm and hope to come out on the 'right' side of the arugment or debate, you go in on the right side of it.
^^
You really nailed it here. I should not be going into it wondering if I will win the debate. I shouldn't be allowing the debate to go on in the first place. I could feel my confidence in my ability to stay sober eroding almost as soon as we landed and beers were being handed out in the airport and everyone was drinking and celebrating. I think 30 days into this was too soon for an all inclusive resort type trip and yes I see the AV in that statement. But after I didn't drink said beer I really felt like I had it! I was so proud of myself and kept marveling at the fact that I wasn't consumed with the obsession and that I was really genuinely enjoying myself..... until that damn virgin cocktail.

You are also right about me being afraid of a life time of constantly being tested. I've also allowed IT to convince me that I won't always pass these tests. I've got a lot of thinking to do. And I really have learned from this, picking up that cocktail and having some more once I knew it had alcohol has been on my mind constantly since it happened. Makes me feel weak and stupid and judged. God I hate the shame with this ******* addiction!

There's nothing I can do now except for keep moving forward.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:37 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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"makes me feel..."
Turn that into "made me feel", IT is using your own emotions and feelings to sow doubt and you have the power to stop IT in its tracks, IT's going to do whatever IT can, You have all the power IT can't even fathom that , so what, YOU got this , rootin for ya !
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:48 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Dear Zen, you are NOT 'weak, stupid or judged' so please dismiss those thoughts as the inaccurate, self-defeatist words, such that the Beast would use to then offer a solution - drink.

You came here and recounted the drinking event, honestly and with the intention to never repeat it. Hold your head up high. eyes forwards and don't look backwards (the Beast will take the opportunity to look backwards, reminding you of this incident and suggesting you self-flagellate and as a cure, IT will offer a drink).

But, you are wise to the Beast's ways now. You pulled back after a couple of sips and didn't allow the Beast to take you into a vertigo mode. You reigned supreme, but were a little slow off the starting blocks in recognising the Beast - but when you did, you asserted your power over IT. You have nothing to admonish yourself for.

What is your plan for the future use of alcohol?
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:58 AM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post

What is your plan for the future use of alcohol?
Never again. After that moment it was over.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:26 AM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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I completely believe you when you say "Never again", Zen. But have you made a Big Plan, "I will never drink alcohol and I will never drink alcohol again". Semantics, I know, but I feel it's important to make the full pledge.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:30 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
Regarding this "didn't stay vigilant" explanation for your drinking again after the desire to drink returned, you may want to read the first part of the post that Tatsy quoted, and some of the responses that follow it as well.
I re-read everything, will you please improvise? thank you
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:51 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
I completely believe you when you say "Never again", Zen. But have you made a Big Plan, "I will never drink alcohol and I will never drink alcohol again". Semantics, I know, but I feel it's important to make the full pledge.
I reaffirmed my Big Plan the moment I pulled myself out of that tailspin. That's the crazy part that is eating away at me, I thought I already had one. As soon as I put the brakes back on and told myself no, my AV lots it's power and I was back in control. I don't drink. I will not drink ever again and I will never change my mind.
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Old 04-05-2017, 09:17 AM
  # 60 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by zenchaser View Post
I reaffirmed my Big Plan the moment I pulled myself out of that tailspin. That's the crazy part that is eating away at me, I thought I already had one. As soon as I put the brakes back on and told myself no, my AV lots it's power and I was back in control. I don't drink. I will not drink ever again and I will never change my mind.
Zen, please don't let it eat away at you, that's what IT wants. You didn't go into vertigo completely, you stopped at a couple of sips and immediately reaffirmed your Big Plan.

The way I see this incident, which will never happen again, is you've now made a Big Plan that is firmly set in stone, forever. Please go forwards, with no recriminations, no self-doubt; for those thoughts are the fodder the Beast thrives on and will force -feed you, in order to go on to suggest a drink as a solution.

This episode is firmly behind you. As you've stated "You will never drink again, and you will never change your mind".
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