Stronger Than You Think?
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Stronger Than You Think?
The Beast in AVRT is a false survival drive, yes? It's an extremely strong one. But we have other, more healthy survival drives. As this false survival drive is actually part of us (I do understand the need to separate it, as it's maverick) does this mean our other survival drives are just as strong, or is this drive for pleasure the over riding one?
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Addictiona is not a survival drive, it is a chemical dependence that alters brain chemistry. Our minds then try and convince us it is necessary. That is where the struggle happens. Survival drives are breathing, running away from lion fight or flight responses.
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In AVRT, the drive for pleasure, in the form of the chemical pleasure alcohol brings, has come from a malfunction of the natural drive for pleasure, which is a survival instinct (ie the pleasure from sex, eating etc, these all release pleasure chemicals). But this drive has been hijacked by the drive for the pleasure alcohol brings, and been mistaken, by the brain as a necessity...that is my very base understanding anyway.
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Modern science and medicine show that addiction is a misdirected survival drive. It's the 'promise of reward' brain dopamine system. Dopamine drives us to action, as a carrot, but unfortunately alcohol and drugs cause the release of huge amounts of dopamine and overtime, the brain uses dopamine as a stick to ensure that we continue drinking or drugging, even though we (our higher rational brain) wants to stop.
Dr. Nora Volkow, the director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, says that: "the way a brain becomes addicted to a drug is related to how a drug increases levels of the naturally-occurring neurotransmitter dopamine, which modulates the brain's ability to perceive reward reinforcement. The pleasure sensation that the brain gets when dopamine levels are elevated creates the motivation for us to proactively perform actions that are indispensable to our survival (like eating or procreation). Dopamine is what conditions us to do the things we need to do.
Using addictive drugs floods the limbic brain with dopamine—taking it up to as much as five or 10 times the normal level. With these levels elevated, the user's brain begins to associate the drug with an outsize neurochemical reward. Over time, by artificially raising the amount of dopamine our brains think is "normal," the drugs create a need that only they can meet.
If a drug produces increases in dopamine in these limbic areas of the brain, then your brain is going to understand that signal as something that is very reinforcing, and will learn it very rapidly, And so that the next time you get exposed to that stimuli, your brain already has learned that that's reinforcing, and you immediately—what we call a type of memory that's conditioning—will desire that particular drug. Over time, the consistently high levels of dopamine create plastic changes to the brain, desensitizing neurons so that they are less affected by it, and decreasing the number of receptors. That leads to the process of addiction, wherein a person loses control and is left with an intense drive to compulsively take the drug."
Dr. Nora Volkow, the director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, says that: "the way a brain becomes addicted to a drug is related to how a drug increases levels of the naturally-occurring neurotransmitter dopamine, which modulates the brain's ability to perceive reward reinforcement. The pleasure sensation that the brain gets when dopamine levels are elevated creates the motivation for us to proactively perform actions that are indispensable to our survival (like eating or procreation). Dopamine is what conditions us to do the things we need to do.
Using addictive drugs floods the limbic brain with dopamine—taking it up to as much as five or 10 times the normal level. With these levels elevated, the user's brain begins to associate the drug with an outsize neurochemical reward. Over time, by artificially raising the amount of dopamine our brains think is "normal," the drugs create a need that only they can meet.
If a drug produces increases in dopamine in these limbic areas of the brain, then your brain is going to understand that signal as something that is very reinforcing, and will learn it very rapidly, And so that the next time you get exposed to that stimuli, your brain already has learned that that's reinforcing, and you immediately—what we call a type of memory that's conditioning—will desire that particular drug. Over time, the consistently high levels of dopamine create plastic changes to the brain, desensitizing neurons so that they are less affected by it, and decreasing the number of receptors. That leads to the process of addiction, wherein a person loses control and is left with an intense drive to compulsively take the drug."
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Many people are baffled by their decision making when addicted. Decision making is a process of selecting a preference, executing the action, and evaluating the action. It is both a cognitive and emotional process.
Alcohol stimulates a dopamine release which encourage the action. Over time, the brain when alcohol is stimulated by alcohol or the anticipation of drinking, there is an urge to drink. Alcohol abuse also impairs cognitive functioning related to decision-making, discernment, impulse control, etc., and damages the memory making function of the brain. The reason the drive seems so strong is that once we are past the pain of the hangover, our go-to emotional memory tired to drinking is from long ago when drinking was still fun. We still know it is harmful for us, but in thinking through the decision to drink, we can’t effectively process the logic – dopamine and emotional memory are propelling us to drink, and cognitive reasoning to decide we shouldn’t isn’t working too well.
So, it isn’t so much that the drive is stronger, but more that addiction has damaged our ability to evaluate the stimuli and properly assess the likely outcome.
Alcohol stimulates a dopamine release which encourage the action. Over time, the brain when alcohol is stimulated by alcohol or the anticipation of drinking, there is an urge to drink. Alcohol abuse also impairs cognitive functioning related to decision-making, discernment, impulse control, etc., and damages the memory making function of the brain. The reason the drive seems so strong is that once we are past the pain of the hangover, our go-to emotional memory tired to drinking is from long ago when drinking was still fun. We still know it is harmful for us, but in thinking through the decision to drink, we can’t effectively process the logic – dopamine and emotional memory are propelling us to drink, and cognitive reasoning to decide we shouldn’t isn’t working too well.
So, it isn’t so much that the drive is stronger, but more that addiction has damaged our ability to evaluate the stimuli and properly assess the likely outcome.
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I love you people,Tatsy and Jazzfish and I am learning day by day. I don't want to get into arguements about AVRT as I am just learning.
But I want to do it.
I don't see why other people would want to come and try to dispute what I believe..if it helps me!
But I want to do it.
I don't see why other people would want to come and try to dispute what I believe..if it helps me!
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it's a forum, Willadoit, so responses with different beliefs is not only par for the course but one of the benefits.
if someone believes or 'knows' that one of your beliefs is not supported by facts in reality, there couyld be much use to you in having a different 'belief' expressed.
questioning my own beliefs, seeing where they came from, how they stood up to my own experiences, where i might be hanging on to them because i was afraid....all those things have been hugely helpful to me in coming to grips with not only my alcoholism but also a bunch of other stuff.
if someone believes or 'knows' that one of your beliefs is not supported by facts in reality, there couyld be much use to you in having a different 'belief' expressed.
questioning my own beliefs, seeing where they came from, how they stood up to my own experiences, where i might be hanging on to them because i was afraid....all those things have been hugely helpful to me in coming to grips with not only my alcoholism but also a bunch of other stuff.
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Willadoit, there are many folks on SR that rely on a 'Higher Power' greater than themselves in order to stop and stay stopped drinking. The higher power maybe God, or a 'group of drunks' or a 'doorknob' or Mother Nature etc., and that higher power is believed to help them stop drinking and live a spiritual life as a non-drinker. If that works for them, that's great, but there are more paths up the mountain and this is Secular Connections.
Here in Secular Connections, we rely upon our own power, our own free will (or free won't) power; that, if you believe in a God, is your birthright and if you don't believe in a God - this free will is scientifically proven.
Free will is higher brain (logic, rationality, postponing instant gratification for greater long term rewards). Lower brain (limbic system and its interrelation with the mid and higher brain) is the survival drive, feel good, immediate gratification, forget tomorrow and how bad and sick I'll feel if I drink too much.....I'm just living in the moment and want more and more drink! Just like an inner toddler having a tantrum, although I still prefer to think of that mis-directed drive for alcohol as a Beast, because it would cause me to drink until I died. Quite beastly.
Here in Secular Connections, we rely upon our own power, our own free will (or free won't) power; that, if you believe in a God, is your birthright and if you don't believe in a God - this free will is scientifically proven.
Free will is higher brain (logic, rationality, postponing instant gratification for greater long term rewards). Lower brain (limbic system and its interrelation with the mid and higher brain) is the survival drive, feel good, immediate gratification, forget tomorrow and how bad and sick I'll feel if I drink too much.....I'm just living in the moment and want more and more drink! Just like an inner toddler having a tantrum, although I still prefer to think of that mis-directed drive for alcohol as a Beast, because it would cause me to drink until I died. Quite beastly.
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Yes, I have picked my path, and AVRT is it. I don't want people coming saying this..that the other..I thought thats what the individual forums were for..yeah you want 12 step, go and do it with your pals, yeah you want AVRT go and do it with your pals,,didnt know was still these endless useless arguments between theologies running through everything
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In other words..I thought this forum was to ask questions among like minded people, and not be faced with differing views on addiction, like you would do in the newcomers forum.
I am in no position to argue with PheonixJ I dont want to debate with PheonixJ. I was asking a question aimed at the people who knew AVRT better than me.
I don't want to argue the toss over what does and doesn't consitutite addiction, Ive made my mind up. I thought I could come here..secular connections and ask a question, without getting into the ins and outs of what I have already rejected
I am in no position to argue with PheonixJ I dont want to debate with PheonixJ. I was asking a question aimed at the people who knew AVRT better than me.
I don't want to argue the toss over what does and doesn't consitutite addiction, Ive made my mind up. I thought I could come here..secular connections and ask a question, without getting into the ins and outs of what I have already rejected
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Willadoit,
The Beast of AVRT is indeed a new, false survival drive, which organizes one's thoughts around the new survival mandate (drink/use). This is why it feels so compelling -- it is equated sub-cortically (in the lower brain) with survival.
As has been noted, others like Nora Volkow from NIDA, and Dr. Kevin McCauley, have recently 'discovered' this survival connection as well, independently of AVRT and RR.
That said, RR used the structural model of addiction mostly to help people make sense of what was going on, independently of the disease model, and it is not strictly necessary for AVRT to be put to use.
It would make little difference as far as AVRT is concerned, for example, if Satan were whispering sweet nothings into addicted people's ears about drinking and using. The mechanism would still be the same.
"I am me, and I never drink/use. IT, not I, wants to drink/use. I run my body. Too bad for IT."
There is no need to get too hung up on brain biology to get started with AVRT, though. The Beast does not 'hijack' the brain, nor is it strong, even though it is persistent. It may want to do so, but it cannot actually engage the peripherals (hands, feet, mouth), any more than your sex drive can.
All the Beast can do is to pretend to be you, so that you do its bidding, as if its desires were your own. This is where the 'recognition' piece of AVRT comes in. Any thinking that contradicts "I will never drink/use again," in any way, shape, or form, is the voice of your addiction.
I recommend going through the free AVRT crash course at the Rational Recovery web site (rational.org) and getting yourself a copy of the book Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction by Jack Trimpey.
There is also a lengthy AVRT discussion thread here on Secular Connections which may be useful in clarifying some concepts.
RR
The Beast of AVRT is indeed a new, false survival drive, which organizes one's thoughts around the new survival mandate (drink/use). This is why it feels so compelling -- it is equated sub-cortically (in the lower brain) with survival.
As has been noted, others like Nora Volkow from NIDA, and Dr. Kevin McCauley, have recently 'discovered' this survival connection as well, independently of AVRT and RR.
That said, RR used the structural model of addiction mostly to help people make sense of what was going on, independently of the disease model, and it is not strictly necessary for AVRT to be put to use.
It would make little difference as far as AVRT is concerned, for example, if Satan were whispering sweet nothings into addicted people's ears about drinking and using. The mechanism would still be the same.
"I am me, and I never drink/use. IT, not I, wants to drink/use. I run my body. Too bad for IT."
There is no need to get too hung up on brain biology to get started with AVRT, though. The Beast does not 'hijack' the brain, nor is it strong, even though it is persistent. It may want to do so, but it cannot actually engage the peripherals (hands, feet, mouth), any more than your sex drive can.
All the Beast can do is to pretend to be you, so that you do its bidding, as if its desires were your own. This is where the 'recognition' piece of AVRT comes in. Any thinking that contradicts "I will never drink/use again," in any way, shape, or form, is the voice of your addiction.
I recommend going through the free AVRT crash course at the Rational Recovery web site (rational.org) and getting yourself a copy of the book Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction by Jack Trimpey.
There is also a lengthy AVRT discussion thread here on Secular Connections which may be useful in clarifying some concepts.
RR
Better when never is never
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Originally Posted by Willadoit 
...secular connections and ask a question, without getting into the ins and outs of what I have already rejected
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I am bloody 5 days sober..forget this.I have just came back from 3 days of hallucinations..My head isnt in the place to take other people on.I dont need this..I cant even get the brain cells together to clean my house! I asked ONE question. It was not answered..it was attacked
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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I didn't think you were being attacked..... no one is trying to take you on. It's all good, we are all in this together trying to help one another. You've been through a LOT in the last few days and I think you are doing fantastic. Welcome to the forum. I'm glad you are here.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
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Originally Posted by Willadoit
Whoever read what I wrote knew what and who it was directed to, and still chose to go in there for an arguement
Secular Connections is normally a safe and supportive place to post.
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Originally Posted by Algorithm
Willadoit,
The Beast of AVRT is indeed a new, false survival drive, which organizes one's thoughts around the new survival mandate (drink/use). This is why it feels so compelling -- it is equated sub-cortically (in the lower brain) with survival.
As has been noted, others like Nora Volkow from NIDA, and Dr. Kevin McCauley, have recently 'discovered' this survival connection as well, independently of AVRT and RR.
That said, RR used the structural model of addiction mostly to help people make sense of what was going on, independently of the disease model, and it is not strictly necessary for AVRT to be put to use.
It would make little difference as far as AVRT is concerned, for example, if Satan were whispering sweet nothings into addicted people's ears about drinking and using. The mechanism would still be the same.
"I am me, and I never drink/use. IT, not I, wants to drink/use. I run my body. Too bad for IT."
There is no need to get too hung up on brain biology to get started with AVRT, though. The Beast does not 'hijack' the brain, nor is it strong, even though it is persistent. It may want to do so, but it cannot actually engage the peripherals (hands, feet, mouth), any more than your sex drive can.
All the Beast can do is to pretend to be you, so that you do its bidding, as if its desires were your own. This is where the 'recognition' piece of AVRT comes in. Any thinking that contradicts "I will never drink/use again," in any way, shape, or form, is the voice of your addiction.
I recommend going through the free AVRT crash course at the Rational Recovery web site (rational.org) and getting yourself a copy of the book Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction by Jack Trimpey.
There is also a lengthy AVRT discussion thread here on Secular Connections which may be useful in clarifying some concepts.
RR
The Beast of AVRT is indeed a new, false survival drive, which organizes one's thoughts around the new survival mandate (drink/use). This is why it feels so compelling -- it is equated sub-cortically (in the lower brain) with survival.
As has been noted, others like Nora Volkow from NIDA, and Dr. Kevin McCauley, have recently 'discovered' this survival connection as well, independently of AVRT and RR.
That said, RR used the structural model of addiction mostly to help people make sense of what was going on, independently of the disease model, and it is not strictly necessary for AVRT to be put to use.
It would make little difference as far as AVRT is concerned, for example, if Satan were whispering sweet nothings into addicted people's ears about drinking and using. The mechanism would still be the same.
"I am me, and I never drink/use. IT, not I, wants to drink/use. I run my body. Too bad for IT."
There is no need to get too hung up on brain biology to get started with AVRT, though. The Beast does not 'hijack' the brain, nor is it strong, even though it is persistent. It may want to do so, but it cannot actually engage the peripherals (hands, feet, mouth), any more than your sex drive can.
All the Beast can do is to pretend to be you, so that you do its bidding, as if its desires were your own. This is where the 'recognition' piece of AVRT comes in. Any thinking that contradicts "I will never drink/use again," in any way, shape, or form, is the voice of your addiction.
I recommend going through the free AVRT crash course at the Rational Recovery web site (rational.org) and getting yourself a copy of the book Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction by Jack Trimpey.
There is also a lengthy AVRT discussion thread here on Secular Connections which may be useful in clarifying some concepts.
RR
I am very fragile and thats when I think the AA vultures strike.
Algorithm, I have read a lot of what you have written and it all strikes true to me, every bit
I am soooo glad you are on this site, feck knows what would have heppened to me otherwise. Now I have a chance
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
Willadoit yesterday I read PhoenixJ's story and was so moved by it that I've still been thinking about it today. Here it is.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-my-story.html
I'm sure that he had nothing but the best of intentions.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-my-story.html
I'm sure that he had nothing but the best of intentions.
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