What do you tell yourself when you KNOW it's your beast talking.
Now what?
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Oregon Coast
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by Algorithm 
It's an AVRT thing, MicroMacro. AVRT is a logic engine patterned after the very logic of addiction itself,
That logic engine will lock on to any contingencies for abstinence, such as your suggestion of getting new all-consuming hobbies, and identify them as Addictive Voice, because in their absence, contingencies are also reasons to drink or use.
This is the logic of Addiction:
Even the "whatever works" to quit drinking idea has some shortcomings when run through the AVRT logic engine. It's kind of like saying that there are many ways to throw a ball, and that what works for someone won't work for someone else.
There are many ways to throw a ball, of course, such as throwing it fast, or slow, but the key action of throwing is still essentially the same, regardless of how you throw it. The same holds for quitting drinking and using.
The Beast will complain and raise holy hell, of course, and try to get you to change your mind and drink or use again, but that's what AVRT is for. It locks on to any thinking that supports changing your mind, and then attributes it to the Beast, to keep you in your right mind.
That logic engine will lock on to any contingencies for abstinence, such as your suggestion of getting new all-consuming hobbies, and identify them as Addictive Voice, because in their absence, contingencies are also reasons to drink or use.
This is the logic of Addiction:
- I drink or use.
- IF (Any thinking that contradicts #1)
Example: "I really shouldn't drink, it will cause big problems." - Go To 1
Even the "whatever works" to quit drinking idea has some shortcomings when run through the AVRT logic engine. It's kind of like saying that there are many ways to throw a ball, and that what works for someone won't work for someone else.
There are many ways to throw a ball, of course, such as throwing it fast, or slow, but the key action of throwing is still essentially the same, regardless of how you throw it. The same holds for quitting drinking and using.
The Beast will complain and raise holy hell, of course, and try to get you to change your mind and drink or use again, but that's what AVRT is for. It locks on to any thinking that supports changing your mind, and then attributes it to the Beast, to keep you in your right mind.
First, I didn't suggest that anyone get all new consuming hobbies. But now that you mention it - it's a great idea so long as they're hobbies a person really enjoys and wants to make part of their life.
"This is the logic of Addiction:
1. I drink or use.
2. IF (Any thinking that contradicts #1)
Example: "I really shouldn't drink, it will cause big problems."
3. Go To 1"
There is zero logic in that and that has not been my experience.
The analogy can rest in how the ball is thrown - fast or slow. It can also rest in how the ball is moved from point A to point B. Is it thrown, kicked, rolled - ... Going from active use to no use (and staying there) is what matters - not how it happens.
How I got to point B is a huge deal to me, but it's not for everyone. Just like secular recovery and AA aren't for everyone.
Giving self a name like "beast" looks a little like purposeful Dissociative Identity Disorder - but if that works for you. I certainly didn't originally post to touch on that.
But the point - I think - is that whatever works for an individual is what needs to be supported. The more options we have, the more apt we'll be to find what works the 1st or 2nd time 'round. Any one who figures out how to save their own life and leave the madness of addiction behind has achieved greatness.
Best
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Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 974
Not good. Thank you for asking. I feel like a total piece of trash. :-) Finishing what I have left for another day one. I think this has been the worst I've ever been. I am learning that that first drink will destroy me. Which it has this week.
I am also learning that this is ALL in my brain. This drive for alcohol. I am seriously living with TWO people inside of me. Like a Jekyll-Hyde I won't submit myself to self recovery groups anymore. It for me is going to be all RR and nutrition.
I am also learning that this is ALL in my brain. This drive for alcohol. I am seriously living with TWO people inside of me. Like a Jekyll-Hyde I won't submit myself to self recovery groups anymore. It for me is going to be all RR and nutrition.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
Well time to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start again. We've all been there. You can do this! Pour out what you have left and spend today resting up and rehydrating and put that A-hole AV back into IT's place.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
I know. I hate myself when I am drinking too. I know it's hard to stop the cycle and the thoughts. Start with right now though, just worry about the moment and what you can do for yourself for today. And then do the same thing tomorrow and the next day until you get yourself some traction.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Behappy1
I am also learning that this is ALL in my brain. This drive for alcohol. I am seriously living with TWO people inside of me. Like a Jekyll-Hyde
The Beast is similar to the hunger drive, which will show you pictures of food, and give you reasons to eat. If you are out of food, it will urge you to go buy some, and to plan for keeping a steady supply.
The Beast, of course, is a bogus survival drive, since we don't actually need alcohol to survive, and not many people are born with the Beast. It was created artificially, through repeated exposure to alcohol.
Don't get bogged down in any of this brain stuff if it doesn't help you, though. Just recognize that the AV is not you, but IT, talking, and that the desire for alcohol is not your desire, but that of the Beast. In this fashion, IT may want to drink, but you do not.
Remember, though, that without a Big Plan, there is no AVRT. It becomes just another 'choosing not to drink today' daily decision tentative abstinence experiment. I would encourage you once again to read the Rational Recovery book, as well as the multi-part AVRT discussion thread.
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Join Date: Apr 2016
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Well thank you all. I think this past week was the worst I've ever been. Pretty much drank 24/7. I was so deathly sick yesterday and today. As in almost going to the hospital sick. I was so dehydrated and weak. I couldn't eat. Lost a ridiculous amount of weight (which I didn't need to lose). No muscle tone. Could barely walk due to shaking. I've been chugging Gatorade, coconut water and just doing anything to keep liquid down. It really scared me. I even had suicidal thoughts. Which is the sickening part. I have too much to live for. I have thrown up prob 20-30 times. Have been up since 4 am just sick as a dog. I am feeling better. Ate a little bit ago for the first time this week. My esophagus raw from all of the puking. A great reminder just how poisonous this is. I am tucked in now with my RR book in hand and will dig deep into AVRT.
I am not normally this heavy of a drinker, but I've filled up a small trash bag with empty vodka bottles in the last 10 days. Sickening. I realize this is TMI, I just wanted it out there mainly for myself as a reminder the next time IT speaks. Thank you all and screw you IT!! NO MORE.
I am not normally this heavy of a drinker, but I've filled up a small trash bag with empty vodka bottles in the last 10 days. Sickening. I realize this is TMI, I just wanted it out there mainly for myself as a reminder the next time IT speaks. Thank you all and screw you IT!! NO MORE.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Hello Behappy, I'm so sorry you've had such a hard time. It isn't too much information, I expect we've all been there. As you say, it's good that you wrote the post, so that you can reflect on it on the future.
Please believe me when I say - it doesn't have to be this way - you can rise above this, you are stronger than you think. You have within you a higher self that can completely override, dismiss, negate, that AV.
I achieved freedom from drinking, after drinking excessively for over twenty years every day and the last five years all day, every day. I stopped drinking by utilising AVRT. The crux is making a Big Plan, which means taking drinking off the table forever. That's the scary part. But it's also the most powerful part - once you accept that drinking is dangerous, poisonous, and not conducive to a life well lived: then it's in your best interests to stop forever.
I know you can do that, Behappy, because I have and believe me, I'm not a special snowflake!
Please believe me when I say - it doesn't have to be this way - you can rise above this, you are stronger than you think. You have within you a higher self that can completely override, dismiss, negate, that AV.
I achieved freedom from drinking, after drinking excessively for over twenty years every day and the last five years all day, every day. I stopped drinking by utilising AVRT. The crux is making a Big Plan, which means taking drinking off the table forever. That's the scary part. But it's also the most powerful part - once you accept that drinking is dangerous, poisonous, and not conducive to a life well lived: then it's in your best interests to stop forever.
I know you can do that, Behappy, because I have and believe me, I'm not a special snowflake!
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Behappy1
I realize this is TMI, I just wanted it out there mainly for myself as a reminder the next time IT speaks. Thank you all and screw you IT!! NO MORE.
The Beast doesn't care about your suffering, so it will not be deterred by that. The Beast is a creature of depression, has a "life sucks" attitude, and equates abstinence with its own death. It will try to push you to the brink with macabre thoughts, but only to squeeze a drink from you as a 'nicer' alternative.
You need to drive the Beast into the ground, but in order to so so, you will have to first stop caring about its suffering by deprivation. In order to separate, it may help you to understand that the AV is not the same thing as the Beast, but rather, the AV is the voice of the Beast.
AV ≠ Beast
AV → Beast = Bark → Dog
The AV is to the Beast as the Bark is to the Dog.
The AV is the 'bark' of the Beast, and the AV, not the Beast, is the real cause of your addiction. The Beast is impotent, without hands, and depends on you to feed it. The AV is any thinking or feeling that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or other drugs.
When you feel a sense of deprivation from alcohol, that is the Addictive Voice, because that sense of deprivation suggests the possible future use of alcohol. It is the Beast talking to you. IT, and not you, suffers, and IT is trying to convince you that ITS suffering is your suffering.
The Beast doesn't care if you suffer, so don't concern yourself with whether or not IT suffers. When you feel ITS sense of deprivation, be glad that IT suffers, after all that it has done, and let the thing bark. You don't even need to 'bark' back. Just let it starve, and it will let you go.
Hope this helps.
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Join Date: Apr 2016
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Originally Posted by Algorithm
Behappy,
The Beast doesn't care about your suffering, so it will not be deterred by that. The Beast is a creature of depression, has a "life sucks" attitude, and equates abstinence with its own death. It will try to push you to the brink with macabre thoughts, but only to squeeze a drink from you as a 'nicer' alternative.
Just let it starve, and it will let you go.
Hope this helps.
The Beast doesn't care about your suffering, so it will not be deterred by that. The Beast is a creature of depression, has a "life sucks" attitude, and equates abstinence with its own death. It will try to push you to the brink with macabre thoughts, but only to squeeze a drink from you as a 'nicer' alternative.
Just let it starve, and it will let you go.
Hope this helps.
I now have a house that's not been attended too for 10 days and about 10 loads of laundry to attend too. I don't think I've ever checked out for this long. I have a lot more reading to do in the RR book. My daughter seemed to need some quality time with me tonight as I've been "asleep" for 10 days. It felt really good to dispose of the garbage bag of vodka bottles I've acquired while they were at school. I spent most of my time with her tonight, which was awesome. She starts track tomorrow and is super stoked.
Thank you all for your input. I think this will be my little spot until I can get acclimated with my new sober lifestyle. I've said before I've done a little bit of aa, smart and cr. I don't like meetings. I think I've left almost all of those meetings and bought a bottle on the way home. I do know they've helped so many though. Maybe I just picked some bad meetings, but all of that talking about alcohol and how it affected life's didn't help ME. I walked into one AA meeting and just the stale smoke smell and unwashed bodies overtook the meeting hall. I sat in the back row and could not get out fast enough.
Again, thank you all! :-)
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Behappy1
This original post is just how powerful IT can be if I let it... IT had all of me the last 10 days.
Do you understand what you will forfeit by continuing to feed the Beast its precious stuff?
Originally Posted by Behappy1
I think this will be my little spot until I can get acclimated with my new sober lifestyle.
All self-doubt about perfect abstinence suggests the opposite, and is therefore Addictive Voice -- the Beast barking.
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Join Date: Apr 2016
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Originally Posted by Algorithm
This is your AV. It is the Beast that has to acclimate to ITS new cage. It is already reorganizing, and trying to undermine your confidence.
All self-doubt about perfect abstinence suggests the opposite, and is therefore Addictive Voice -- the Beast barking.
It's a rainy day, I plan to make a lot of headway through the RR book. Thank you all!
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Las Vegas
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BeHappy,glad you're on the mend this is an awesome thread and I'm learning alongside you,while I've read the RR book and the small book there's still a lot I need to learn and I love how this thread is explaining it,good luck to your daughter on her first track day
this is an awesome thread and I'm learning alongside you,while I've read the RR book and the small book there's still a lot I need to learn and I love how this thread is explaining it,good luck to your daughter on her first track day Quit 4/17/15
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Pa
Posts: 15,146
The key to AVRT is Recognition. Recognizing the Addictive Voice.
As Algorithm stated, the AV is a bogus survival drive created by alcohol use and abuse on our part. This takes place on the unconscious level, just as other survival drives like eating and breathing do. The unconscious mind works one third of a second faster than our conscious minds do. The AV is flooding our unconscious minds with drinking thoughts and cues and uses this third of a second to its advantage. Recognizing the AV and its thoughts reminds us that we have total control of our drinking. The AV is powerless. It can not make us pick up a drink not matter how greatly it wants to. We are in control 100 percent once we recognize the AV and its ruses to try to get us to drink.
Knowledge is power!
As Algorithm stated, the AV is a bogus survival drive created by alcohol use and abuse on our part. This takes place on the unconscious level, just as other survival drives like eating and breathing do. The unconscious mind works one third of a second faster than our conscious minds do. The AV is flooding our unconscious minds with drinking thoughts and cues and uses this third of a second to its advantage. Recognizing the AV and its thoughts reminds us that we have total control of our drinking. The AV is powerless. It can not make us pick up a drink not matter how greatly it wants to. We are in control 100 percent once we recognize the AV and its ruses to try to get us to drink.
Knowledge is power!
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Behappy1
Quit drinking, recover for a few days, feel better, feel more confident and then BAM another relapse. The cycle repeats.
About this recovering and feeling better thing, if you are stopping only because it doesn't feel very good after a bender, then all the Beast has to do is to convince you that it would feel good, once the memory of the hangover begins to fade.
Try abstaining even if drinking would feel good (it does to the Beast), and even if drinking would immediately rocket you to cloud nine. Abstain from the benefits of drinking, not just from the downsides.
No Big Plan, no AVRT.
Originally Posted by Behappy1
Just today the thought of drinking entered my mind. WTH?? Feeling very strong against it and will not drink.
Once again, the Beast is not the cause of your addiction, because the Beast can't even wiggle your fingers, much less drive to the liquor store, use money to purchase alcohol, drive home, and then swallow that alcohol. The AV is the cause of your addiction, because the Beast needs you.
The Beast may desire alcohol, and dream about alcohol, but it cannot move the peripherals (hands, feet, mouth). Only you can do that. Try asking the Beast to wiggle your finger in exchange for some drinks. It won't be able to do it.
The "R" in AVRT stands for recognition, not removal, running away from, or refuting. Don't ignore the AV, either. Just recognize the AV as the Beast talking, in your thoughts, and remember that those are not your thoughts.
Those are the thoughts of the Beast. The Beast, and not you, wants to drink. Too bad for IT. You don't drink, or even want to drink.
Hears The Voice
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Originally Posted by Behappy1
Just today the thought of drinking entered my mind.
I also thought about keying my boss's car, staring shamelessly at Tammy-the-hot-chick in technical services, and selling all my stuff so I can buy an RV and tour the desert southwest.
Brains are weird.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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I caught myself in a full fantasy today about my upcoming vacation, really strong and vivid and then I caught myself..... and I just observed what it was, my addiction, my AV and I actually smiled and thought there you are... I see you. And then I thought about all my reasons for quitting, because it just doesn't align with my values and who I want to be, because I am better than living down IT. I felt really strong and good and started fantasizing about how great my vacation will be sober and how much more time and energy I will have to do other cool things.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical
Mine, too.
I also thought about keying my boss's car, staring shamelessly at Tammy-the-hot-chick in technical services, and selling all my stuff so I can buy an RV and tour the desert southwest.
Brains are weird.
I also thought about keying my boss's car, staring shamelessly at Tammy-the-hot-chick in technical services, and selling all my stuff so I can buy an RV and tour the desert southwest.
Brains are weird.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
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Re: Vacations... The Joys Of Doing Stuff Sober just keeps on keepin' on.
We just rolled in from a >7 Week Trip around the SoCal Desert, and hit some Mineral Hot Springs. Toured Elvis' Honeymoon House in Palm Springs. Rode the Tramway up to the Mountaintop & back. Hiked all over the Desert with MesaDog. Dealt with a Gas Station Gent in Utah where a well-known Scam is find Tires 'about to fail', and point that out. Um, blew him off politely. Set up our Trailer in 15 F [-9 C] Degree Weather one Night. Had a Sheriff roll up to me while I was hiking around with our Pooch; just seeing if I'm OK. Dealt with a few really tough Neighborhoods around Las Vegas. Shot the breeze with endless Folks met at RV Parks. Didn't lose any ATM or Credit Cards. Drove some very demanding Streets in Palm Springs, and in Vegas with Folks blasting through Red Traffic Lights. Drove some at Night. My new enjoyment in Sober Life.
ALL of this would have been difficult, or paranoiac, if still Drinking. The Trailer Hitch weight on the Truck - which is compensated for - pushes 800 lbs. Big Safety Chains. Stuff that will crush Limbs. Not stuff you want to be fooling with while Hammered. Backed the 8' wide RV Trailer into some tight spots, and through narrow Gas Stations. Also, note Chez BadAzz Cactus below; best encountered with 0.0 BAC...
As I tally more of these experiences >3 Years in, regressing to Drinking just isn't interesting, or possible Health-wise. You can't miss what you don't want anymore.
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Re: Vacations... The Joys Of Doing Stuff Sober just keeps on keepin' on.
We just rolled in from a >7 Week Trip around the SoCal Desert, and hit some Mineral Hot Springs. Toured Elvis' Honeymoon House in Palm Springs. Rode the Tramway up to the Mountaintop & back. Hiked all over the Desert with MesaDog. Dealt with a Gas Station Gent in Utah where a well-known Scam is find Tires 'about to fail', and point that out. Um, blew him off politely. Set up our Trailer in 15 F [-9 C] Degree Weather one Night. Had a Sheriff roll up to me while I was hiking around with our Pooch; just seeing if I'm OK. Dealt with a few really tough Neighborhoods around Las Vegas. Shot the breeze with endless Folks met at RV Parks. Didn't lose any ATM or Credit Cards. Drove some very demanding Streets in Palm Springs, and in Vegas with Folks blasting through Red Traffic Lights. Drove some at Night. My new enjoyment in Sober Life.
ALL of this would have been difficult, or paranoiac, if still Drinking. The Trailer Hitch weight on the Truck - which is compensated for - pushes 800 lbs. Big Safety Chains. Stuff that will crush Limbs. Not stuff you want to be fooling with while Hammered. Backed the 8' wide RV Trailer into some tight spots, and through narrow Gas Stations. Also, note Chez BadAzz Cactus below; best encountered with 0.0 BAC...
As I tally more of these experiences >3 Years in, regressing to Drinking just isn't interesting, or possible Health-wise. You can't miss what you don't want anymore.
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