shakeel

I have been studying MBRP( mindfulness based relapse prevention) since my last relapse a month ago and it sounds as if AVRT is an offshoot. Basically, one needs to practice mindfulness meditation to exercise the frontal lobe on being aware at all times in order to recognize which thoughts come from the midbrain.
to be able to rewire one's brain, creating new neuronal pathways and getting rid of old ones, labeling the thoughts and disregarding them just in avrt when we spot the AV and the beast trying to pull a fast one.
I also stopped attending skype AA meetings but continue to talk to some members on a one to one basis. I found the meetings to be counter productive since all we talk about is booze all day long and I sometimes found myself obsessing about the drink after a meeting.

freshstart57

I am a fan of mindfulness too, NIC. It is not always easy, but it certainly is an authentic way to live. And it brings full satisfaction.

From where I sit, AVRT and mindfulness are close cousins. They both speak to a self awareness and a separation that comes from becoming a detached observer of events, of emotions, and of our own thoughts. The result is some emotional breathing space, some elbow room. We have the opportunity to observe without becoming wrapped up and pulled into the drama of the moment.

AVRT makes things very simple for us. It provides a sure-fire way of spotting the Beast by asking this question: Does that thought promote drinking now or at any time in the future? Does it promote doubt in our ability to quit and stay quit for good? It is the same thing, really, so yes, it is one question.

We don't need to ask if that thought comes from the midbrain, just does it concern drinking. If it does, go all mindful on that stuff. Observe it with something like amused detachment, like, Well howdy wouldja look at that! Huh! Typical. Then observe something like breath, its sensations. I imagine a glow coming from just behind my belly button as I exhale. This makes the separation between you and IT simple. Those thoughts cannot be you, they must be from IT. How do you know? Because you made a Big Plan.

Immediately at this point, I go and do something. I do something that reinforces the energy I have that comes from this victory.

Anyway, that is some of my experience with mindfulness and AVRT. Hope you find it helpful, NIC. I think you might have to change your username if you keep this up! You are doing great. Onward!

Delilah1

Mindfulness continues to be a part of my recovery program. I struggle to stay grounded in the present, my mind isn't always running with a list of what needs to get done next, and having constant access to my email via my phone doesn't help. I need to make a conscious effort to slow down, breathe, and be present. It is something I will definitely continue to work to improve.

shakeel

Great stuff. as far as the username goes, it dates to my time in AA. I have tried changing it on this site but in vain. could not find a way to change usernames on the forum.

Fusion

Hello, Notincontrol. I believe you may PM a site Aministrator, Anna, to enable your user name to be changed.

Fusion

Hello again Notincontrol. I've been mulling over your post all day. Whilst actively drinking, I practiced Mindfullness, attended Buddhist led courses and weekly group meditation sessions. Years ago, I found the 'Finding Peace in a Frantic World' book by Dr. Penman and Mark Williams (together with the guided meditation CD) very useful.

I still practice Mindfullness today and now that I'm a non-drinker, I particularly enjoy the walking meditations, in the countryside, excercise and relaxation all in one. But Mindfullness didn't stop me drinking.

How did I manage to stop drinking, after daily binge drinking for 20 years and to stop any relapse? By learning and practising AVRT and making a Big Plan, to never drink again and never change my mind. Relapse is not an option and therefore I don't require relapse prevention.

After your post, I researched MBRP and listened to the SOBER and Urge Surfing meditations and they're similar to the book and CD I mentioned above (which is sold to relieve stress).

The difference for me, between Mindfullness and AVRT is that, for instance, the SOBER meditation requires you to:

S: Stop -interrupt the action - auto-pilot mode.
O: Observe your feelings, body, mind.
B: Focus on your breathe in and out (to collect your scattered thoughts) and ground your minds attention.
E: After focusing on breathe, expand your awareness and re-evaluate and observe your feelings, body and mind.
R: respond (to the original 'thought' that made you start this practice, in a different way. Pause, you still have choices, you don't need to carry out the original thought, you have options.

In my personal experience, by the time I'd carried out all the above, I'd have drank before the end.

My familiarity with mindfulness certainly assisted me as I learnt AVRT.

But the difference? For me, AVRT is immediate, instant, laser beam focus on the target, the AV. AVRT stops the AV in its tracks. If I used mindfulness on its own to stop myself responding to the AV, I'd be as doomed as I was for years whilst practising mindfulness, alone.

Algorithm

Thank you, Tatsy.

This thread has been bothering me since it was first started, and I wanted to respond. This provides the lead-in I needed.

Algorithm

In two words - not so. I wrote the following tongue-in-cheeck, in another thread, but it should illustrate the difference between the logic of AVRT, and the idea of relapse prevention.

MBRP was invented by Dr. Alan Marlatt, PhD, who was never addicted, and who supported the idea of moderate drinking by proven problem drinkers. He helped to found Moderation Management to experiment with that idea on a large scale, and served on its board of directors for a long time.

He could not possibly imagine what addiction actually feels like, but he nevertheless thought it would be a good idea to write long textbooks about how he imagines it probably feels like, and to support the idea that proven problem drinkers can have just a little, if only they're careful about it.

As Tasty pointed out, you don't need relapse prevention unless you plan to have relapses. The idea of relapse prevention is based on the uncertainty principle, and is predicated on an enduring plan to drink, often under certain special, 'slippery' conditions. It puts the addicted person in the difficult, and tentatively defensive position of trying to ward off the Beast in order to abstain.

You've been playing the recovery game for a while now, notincontrol, and have been aware of the existence of AVRT since 2011. Yet, instead of learning and applying the very simple logic of AVRT, you have persisted in trying to "take what you like" from various programs, without recognizing that it was actually your Beast taking what IT likes, and leaving the rest.

I would encourage you to stop calling your binges 'relapses', as if you were not in control of your arms and legs at all times, and that you pay attention when your Beast tries to take only what IT likes, such as ideas of impending yummy relapses, and when IT tries to leave the rest, such as the idea of never having any relapses.

If you still have your Rational Recovery: The New Cure book, I recommend re-reading it, alone, in a quiet room, without distractions, but not for loopholes this time. I would also encourage reading through the lengthy and informative AVRT discussion thread, and posting any questions you may have regarding AVRT therein.

Part #1

shakeel

I think I need to reread these replies more than once. a lot to take in. Seriously, great stuff. I think the reason I started dabbling with MBRP is because I been running on autopilot and was searching for more awareness (just in case) the bracketed part is probably from the beast. From the different replies I managed to conclude that I would benefit from mindfulness without the relapse prevention part, avrt takes care of the latter; and that I need to check in here more often.

shakeel

and that I need to reread the book from start to finish.

Fusion

Hello Notincontrol, I'm glad you responded! Please check back soon and let us know if you have any questions, whatsoever.

MythOfSisyphus

FWIW, the creator of AVRT advises one to quit going to meetings once they've made their Big Plan. Meetings are about 'recovery' and the idea that one is always 'sick' with alcoholism. But Trimpsy says the once you make your BP there's nothing to meet about any longer, that you're 'cured' so long as you follow AVRT. Now I'm paraphrasing and perhaps at risk of incorrectly describing some aspects but he is clear that meetings are part of relapsing, not sobriety. Perhaps he would include SR in that deal but I still find the forum useful, if for no other reason than to 'give back' to those who have helped me.

soberlicious

I believe mindfulness practices have a big place in my life, but as far as not drinking, what is there to mindful of? That I will "forget" that I don't drink? For me, that's not possible.

terall

Yes, I have quite a few techniques I have picked up over the years to cope with things I was having a bit of trouble with in my life (stress, procrastination, awfulizing etc). But I don't use them to keep me from drinking, they don't work a jot for me in that department, only avrt does. But they are useful in other departments.

shakeel

Well I practice mindfulness to be more aware of the present moment. I made a big plan before and ended up drinking, I had a "vertigo" flooded with thoughts from the beast to the point that my body followed suit and felt like a panic attack, at that moment, I would say that my brain was hijacked and did not bring myself to be aware of what was happening. in other words I went back to being on auto pilot. Going back to mindfulness, I am using it to reinforce my mind in being alert and aware of the AV. Yes, I will never drink again and I will never change my mind. The beast wanted wanted me to add ( but in case I get an attack from the beast.......)

GerandTwine

Vertigo cannot overcome the once in a lifetime Big Plan.

The best way to inform yourself about the Big Plan is to recreate in detail exactly what was going on in the fifteen minutes immediately before you swallowed that first drink again, in exact chronological order. Where were you, what were you thinking, feeling and doing? Slowly and deliberately, put it all into words. It is the R in AVRT that is going on when you do this type of REcognition. Avoiding this important exercise leaves you thinking that you can make the Big Plan as many times as you like.

If, after doing this REcogntion exercise, you still come up with idea that you actually had pledged "I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind." before having more to drink, then you must do the REcognition exercise again and go into more detail and actually write down in exact chronological order what those detailed events were, and the thoughts and feelings that went along with making those events happen. When you finally realize that, "Aha, I now realize that I had NOT pledged to never drink again before I had more to drink", then you have succeeded at doing AVRT and you can consider making an actual Big Plan.