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Old 12-10-2016, 07:11 AM
  # 101 (permalink)  
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Hi MesaMan, thanks for your post. I've been thinking about what you said.

I've actually read through some different threads on here and can relate to how others have felt using AVRT in their early sobriety. I'm not going through anything different.

I too can relate to your sporting, muscle memory ideas I swim, not competitively, but could have and may still do. Yes my habitual behavoiur has been to default to drink or drug, because there was no seperation between myself and the beast. The beast beat me everytime! IT got what IT wanted and I and others really suffered as a result. I am now becoming aware of the difference between my true self and IT, 'we' want completley different lives. Although it is going to take time for this ingrained response,to everything, to change, I am confident that this will happen by applying AVRT and having my BP. If I have to 'wrestle' a little with IT for awhile so be it, it will make me stronger. My swimming technique has become stronger and much more efficient/ effortless over the years due to the time and effort I have put into it. I know addiction is not akin to swimming, as addiction threatens my very existence, but these ideas are helpful for me to get my head around all this.

The new nueral pathways that are being created in my brain I can again liken to the physicality of learning good swimming technique. It takes time but is certainly doable. Once the fundamentals are firmly established through constant practise the act becomes very natural and comfortable. This is what I aspire too using AVRT on my addiction, for it to become my natural response to AV/ beast activity. Or as you put it so well MesaMan, sobriety enforcing auto pilot, not engaging the 'brain' just a newly formed natural response. Sorry if I've gone on a bit there! Don't know if that makes much sense to anybody else, but it does to me, lol.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:14 AM
  # 102 (permalink)  
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Algorithm and GT I have to go back to work I'm not ignoring your post, will think about what you have both said and reply soon.

Just quickly GT those thoughts boost my confidence levels, thankyou.
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Old 12-10-2016, 02:57 PM
  # 103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I understand yes, Algo. but thinking that it's a "good" thing to be free of constant chatter doesn't necessarily = "All better now! Let's drink!" What of the satisfaction and joy of having kicked an addiction?
No, but the Addictive Voice is making a false connection between its own silence and some kind of success, as if its own silence were necessary "proof" that the addiction is over, and that if it isn't silent, it isn't over yet. When the AV inevitably returns, it will almost certainly draw on this previously planted false connection.

The lingering fear that it's not really over yet is a part of addiction, but it is also Addictive Voice, often fortified by exposure to ideas such as relapse prevention, building sober muscles ("practicing sobriety"), waiting for brain chemistry to re-adjust, fixing the underlying issues that made us drink, etc.

The Beast can play Chess, and it does this by injecting doubt, by suggesting that it isn't really over until IT finally dies and the AV goes away.
"It's still too soon to tell. It's not over till it's over."Your Beast
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I understand that you're saying that lowering Beast activity is only incidental, but if that were not the initial goal for many I'd be surprised. When the Beast first hears Never, it goes nutsssss. As we all know, it then retreats as a result of Never, so getting to that point provides much needed relief from the struggle.
The Beast certainly does go nuts, but the Beast will always reorganize itself, no matter how silent it becomes, or for how long it has been silent, which is why those who buy into the "silence = good" idea are often surprised when the Beast inevitably "returns" after some time. It "returns" because it never really dies, but that doesn't mean anything.

Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I think being afraid of feeling good that the Beast is pretty much locked away can also be compared to the fear of "complacency", which is another silly notion if you're a nondrinker. If others say they are so happy that they've noticed a decrease in Beast activity, I would state that they should expect later activity but not fear it. It will come and it will go. The answer will still be the same.
You are absolutely correct in making the connection with the idea of complacency, but I'm not saying that one should be afraid, I am saying that one should be aware that it is the Addictive Voice itself suggesting that AV silence, or the absence of desire, is in some way connected with success.

Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I think if someone says, "Man, I feel great since becoming a nondrinker. I don't even think about drinking anymore!" What would your response to them be?
This would be immediately suspect, and I would probably ask them the following questions:
  1. Is it good or bad that you don't even think about drinking anymore?
  2. Why is it good that you don't even think about drinking?
  3. What if you did think about drinking? What then?

This will usually get their wheels turning, and on to the wily Beast's tactics. In AVRT, it is neither good nor bad to desire to drink, and it is neither good nor bad to have AV activity. Either way, it's no drinking, as you stated. However, we can probably go further.

When I recognize the desire of my enemy, the Beast, I can shift from ITS suffering to my gloating. I not only do not care that IT suffers by yearning without consummation, but I am glad that IT suffers. The AVRT Matrix more or less illustrates this approach with the next to "I" and the next to "IT".
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Old 12-10-2016, 03:16 PM
  # 104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flame11 View Post
The new nueral pathways that are being created in my brain I can again liken to the physicality of learning good swimming technique. It takes time but is certainly doable. Once the fundamentals are firmly established through constant practise the act becomes very natural and comfortable. This is what I aspire too using AVRT on my addiction, for it to become my natural response to AV/ beast activity.
The above is your Addictive Voice, injecting doubt.

Is ending your addiction doable, or is it done?

What if it doesn't become very natural and comfortable? What then?

What if new neural pathways are not created? Would that mean something?

These questions should give you a moving target to lock on to and recognize the implicit Addictive Voice in such thinking.

I have to say, you've kicked off quite the AVRT discussion here, flame. Some of us should probably get our own thread, but I hope you find some of this information useful.
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Old 12-10-2016, 03:31 PM
  # 105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
"Yeah, makes all the sense in the world. Just like sex with Mabel." "Hmmm. WTF. What kind of analogy is that? I'm not an idiot. The AV can sail the Titanic through that analogy."
I understand what you're saying, GT, but the sex drive analogy is the closest comparison, in that it continually "reorganizes" itself, and can induce "strategic" AV, with lots of planning in some cases, just like the Beast. It is also something that requires regular restraint in modern life, but which most people are nevertheless quite comfortable restraining, which is what AVRT is ultimately about. No fear in the face of desire.
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Old 12-10-2016, 04:07 PM
  # 106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Algorithm
You are absolutely correct in making the connection with the idea of complacency, but I'm not saying that one should be afraid, I am saying that one should be aware that it is the Addictive Voice itself suggesting that AV silence, or the absence of desire, is in some way connected with success.
That's right. I do not agree that AV silence is connected to success. Which is why I disagree with ODAAT, because that will appear to silence the noise but really It's only quieting down because It still has a chance so It's cool with that. That said, there is a good and positive feeling with shining a light on the Beast and saying I see you and having It shrink away.
but I am glad that IT suffers.
Exactly this.

I feel good that I am permanently abstinent and I am often grateful that I do not have constant noise. This may be my AV...idk I haven't thought about it much personally because I don't drink and will never drink. It has returned a couple of times in the last 10 years (even pretty intensely once), but obvi didn't cause me to drink. I think people who have just quit want to be reassured that "it gets better" and I want to reassure them that it does, because what's the point of quitting if not to reclaim your life and live it the way you want to not the way IT wants to? I guess I would probably point out that success is not defined by absence of AV, but absence of fear in the face of AV. The struggle isn't created by the AV, the struggle is created by engaging with it...and that activity does lessen with separation. Am I misleading others by suggesting that?
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Old 12-10-2016, 04:51 PM
  # 107 (permalink)  
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Hi Algorithm, ,

Thanks for the advice. Especially what you said about the beast interpreting any dialogue as negotiations. I am starting to get it, im starting to also see that IT will play both sides of the argument, crafty. I do not want to negotiate with IT. This is where I had be going wrong all along. Thinking I could reason with IT (before I actually knew what IT was). Like you said the beast is totally immutable, and IT will never change., I'm getting that too. I suppose in that way IT'S pretty Dumb??

I'm also understanding just how very important it is to establish the seperation from IT. I didn't fully understand this a few days ago, it is becoming alot clearer to me, now that I'm putting it into actual practise. For example, IT has been suffering and using my feelings to convey IT'S suffering to me, IT wants me to feel so uncomfortable that I rush out and buy alcohol, but thanks to your posts and others, I've been able to identify these feelings of anxiety, anger and stress as coming from IT and not me. When I I.D them this way they do dissipate, they return after a little while and again i recognise that they dont belong to me. My life is getting better I am starting to feel better, I am actually quite happy with my life. I could have more money or a better job, a loving relationship, but im ok with where im at right now, things could be and have been alot worse. The only thing that was bringing me down was my inability to stop doing something that was hurting me. Now IT is hurting, I am not. I get it.

When I was saying NEVER the other day it might well have been to myself as well as to IT. I felt the struggle going on and I needed to end it. I will stay aware of not getting in the ring with IT.

When I said it was doable,I was referring to new nueral pathways being created. I'm not so hot on science but I was imagining that this was possible. My addiction has ended forever.

If practising AVRT doesn't become my natural or a comfortable response to AV/ beast activity, my beast just said " well you may as well go on the pi## then" I say it would still be a better way to live then drinking...it would not hurt me or anybody else, i would still be alive and im positive i would have happy times in my life. I would still have hope. If I drank my life would become unbearable. My abstinence is NOT dependant on my response to the AV/ beast activity being natural or comfortable.

I don't know what it would mean if new neural pathways were not created. My abstinence is NOT dependant on it. I like the idea that this would be possible, why? Because it sounds good.

Thanks for asking those questions, I think I know what you're getting at...putting conditions on my abstinence??

I think this thread is great. This is the first time I've ever participated in any thing like this. I'm not even a facebooker or twitterer ( is that even a word) so it's all new to me. A definite YES I find this helpful on different levels. What has been written and the encouragement and support is amazing. I dont feel alone anymore. So please don't stop! I'm actually getting a bit addicted to SR but I'm good with that. I feel very grateful that i discovered secular connections, it's what I was looking for. ☺
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:11 PM
  # 108 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
"Yeah, makes all the sense in the world. Just like sex with Mabel." "Hmmm. WTF. What kind of analogy is that? I'm not an idiot. The AV can sail the Titanic through that analogy."
Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
I understand what you're saying, GT, but the sex drive analogy is the closest comparison, in that it continually "reorganizes" itself, and can induce "strategic" AV, with lots of planning in some cases, just like the Beast. It is also something that requires regular restraint in modern life, but which most people are nevertheless quite comfortable restraining, which is what AVRT is ultimately about. No fear in the face of desire.
Sorry, you haven't sold me one iota closer to it being a good analogy. I can always go home and woo and screw darling Mabel. In my mind that blows the analogy of a monogamous marrieage vow with the Big Plan sky high. And I would never use it because it would be so illogical to an AVRT newbie.

What's the argument against the priest/nun analogy? It has none of the continuing pleasure conflict. What's not continually reorganizing there?
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:25 PM
  # 109 (permalink)  
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Most of all this thread inspires me.
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:50 PM
  # 110 (permalink)  
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Good for society, but not good for me?

The scientifically based facts of certain biological things that may happen to a human organism due to its summarily ending a chemical dependency may be interpreted by sociological evaluators as positive for society or not.

The fact of the extinction curve describing the decrease of the desire to get high again can be evaluated by sociologists as positive for society, but in AVRT I cannot take posession of that result being positive in an opinion of my own about myself, because it supports the future use of alcohol/drugs. I can say, with the sociologists, the extinction curve is good for society, but I cannot say it's good within me, because that would be my Addictive Voice.

Similarly with the fact of new neurological shortcuts being established following a pledge of permanent abstinence. It's overall benefits for society allows us to feel good about that fact. It may have even saved my life by assisting some pledger who didn't know AVRT from getting drunk again and driving and killing me. Remote but possible, right? Instead, because I use AVRT, I cannot take posession of any good feelings in that regard as being my own, because there is the remote, some might say absolute, possibility that my Beast will use that good feeling to get me to drink again.

I get it, but I also wonder if my Beast is gloating over the very idea that IT has a monopoly on all positive feelings within me about such scientific understandings. In AVRT, IT says "You're not supposed to have ANY feelings or thoughts about your own biological status in regards to those scientific understandings. Only I (IT) can feel good about that. Ha Ha Ha." That idea doesn't bother me at all (because I don't fully buy it), except it does begin to sound to me like the founding of some new sort of original sin (addiction style).

Is there a limit in how far IT can go along with me in the higher orders of thinking about thinking about thinking about ...? I have thought not, but now I'm not sure because there are so many ways to parse the AV at those higher levels.
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:20 PM
  # 111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I can always go home and woo and screw darling Mabel. In my mind that blows the analogy of a monogamous marrieage vow with the Big Plan sky high.
Perhaps, but people sometimes quit drinking, and keep smoking cigarettes, for example. I'm sure that the nicotine excites the Beast, on some level, just as prescribed painkillers do. There is a small "buzz/high" as a side effect from the pain killers, after all. It will give the Beast a little oxygen, but one need not go out and drink because of that.

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
What's the argument against the priest/nun analogy?
I don't have an argument against the priest/nun analogy, GT, but I don't think many people can personally imagine that scenario, although they may have seen it, which is probably good enough. They can probably imagine shorter periods of personal celibacy, however.

I was speaking more to the fact that it's not nearly as difficult to restrain a persistent drive as is so often suggested, if you know what you are doing. There is simply no need to root out desire in order to comfortably abstain.
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:46 PM
  # 112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I think people who have just quit want to be reassured that "it gets better" and I want to reassure them that it does because what's the point of quitting if not to reclaim your life and live it the way you want to not the way IT wants to?
I can certainly understand this sentiment, along with the distinction between living the way you want to versus the way IT wants to. I think the latter is the most important, since the Beast fears for its own death by deprivation far more than the literal death and suffering of its host, and it will drive one to ruin without a second thought.

However, the "it gets better" part could almost border on bargain thinking, as in a bargain that promises a payoff. If the imagined promised payoff does not materialize, then the wily Beast has an opening to argue for a return to using.

"Illusion 12" in Rational Recovery: TNC, Pages 81-83.

Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I guess I would probably point out that success is not defined by absence of AV, but absence of fear in the face of AV. The struggle isn't created by the AV, the struggle is created by engaging with it...and that activity does lessen with separation. Am I misleading others by suggesting that?
No, I don't believe that you are misleading.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:00 PM
  # 113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flame11 View Post
Thanks for asking those questions, I think I know what you're getting at...putting conditions on my abstinence??
Precisely. All conditions for abstinence are automatically conditions for a return to drinking/using, and the Beast will merely see them as "opportunities" to be exploited, or at the very least, to undermine your confidence.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:36 PM
  # 114 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
Perhaps, but people sometimes quit drinking, and keep smoking cigarettes, for example. I'm sure that the nicotine excites the Beast, on some level, just as prescribed painkillers do. There is a small "buzz/high" as a side effect from the pain killers, after all. It will give the Beast a little oxygen, but one need not go out and drink because of that.
I believe the above is all Addictive Voice thinking. It supports the idea that if you quit alcohol/drugs, but not nicotine, then you are somehow feeding C-rations to your Beast of alcohol/drugs. I've always believed that AVRT defines a completely separate "Smokey the Beast" for nicotine because, while nicotine is severely physically damaging, it is behaviorally and mind altering on the level of caffeine and sugar, not alcohol/mind altering drugs.

Also, the above is AV because the Beast goal of getting me to easily acquiesce into the role of a medical patient in pain and need of pain killers is completely passed over unrecognized in trying to justify the marriage vow analogy. And we all know the seriousness of pain killer addiction growth here in the U.S.

Originally Posted by Algorithm
I don't have an argument against the priest/nun analogy, GT, but I don't think many people can personally imagine that scenario, although they may have seen it, which is probably good enough. They can probably imagine shorter periods of personal celibacy, however.

I was speaking more to the fact that it's not nearly as difficult to restrain a persistent drive as is so often suggested, if you know what you are doing. There is simply no need to root out desire in order to comfortably abstain.
AVRT is not about cushioning people into scenarios they can imagine. It is about informing people that they have the complete and instantaneous capacity to immediately launch themselves into permanent abstention using a very simple pledge that society has spent 175 years indoctrinating them into thinking they cannot succeed at; of deciding to stop doing ON THEIR OWN something they haven't imagined how they could stop doing. Why continue to pamper the Beast?

Imagining shorter periods is what the problem is all about. All Beast.

I will very comfortably abstain for an imagined short period after a nice time of having sex with Mabel. Which has nothing to do with AVRT.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:00 PM
  # 115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Algorithm
However, the "it gets better" part could almost border on bargain thinking, as in a bargain that promises a payoff. If the imagined promised payoff does not materialize, then the wily Beast has an opening to argue for a return to using.
Yes, I understand the reasoning behind this, but at the end of the crash course Trimpey says this:
If you feel good right now, trust your feelings! They are not a pink cloud, denial, or a honeymoon. They are the authentic you, with new hope for your future. I have named these good feelings the Abstinence Commitment Effect (ACE).
So, how can the ACE not be AV? I've had the ACE for 10 years now That is not to say I haven't had some really super sh*tty times in my life where I've been really unhappy. I have. I certainly have. But even in my worst times, the happiness that the ACE brought has never left me. I think you might ask, what if it did leave me? I think for the ACE to waver ("I'm not really happy about having quit") would most certainly be AV and would be ignored. idk I mean I would hope the goal in quitting would be as Trimpey describes...good feelings and a new hope for the future.
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Old 12-11-2016, 04:22 AM
  # 116 (permalink)  
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I do not know, how something so simple, can get so convoluted pftt
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Old 12-11-2016, 05:02 AM
  # 117 (permalink)  
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If anything, would put someone off AVRT it would be the bollocks on this thread!
Or other over intellecalisted threads,,yeah, you have great minds, yeah you can over think..yeah you!! AM am sorry I am German
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Old 12-11-2016, 05:18 AM
  # 118 (permalink)  
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^^^ BAM! This! ^^^

It doesn't matter if feeling good about what I've achieved via CE is the AV hiding out. Because, my response to that possible Event is: I still don't drink.

It doesn't matter if the AV pipes up 3 times over 10 Years. Because, my response to that is: I still don't drink.

It doesn't matter if new Neural Pathways develop or not. You know the answer... I believe the Science is generally in on this matter, BTW.

By speculating on what I would term very hypothetical 'what ifs' - that read like mandatory conformance to some sort of 'AVRT Purity Litmus Test' - we're complicating the simple. Especially in a Thread with the Title of this one.

Also, to my Eye, these hypothetical 'Escape Clauses To Sobriety' being postulated are starting to read just like other Methods that say: 'I'm Sober, but I might slip down the Road IF I don't follow Regimen X several times a Week'. That's just ODAAT masquerading in Sheep's Clothing. Those Scenarios proposing that a strengthened AV might get me sometime down the Road are - quite ironically - is pure AV that is seeking conditions that somehow might test me. Actually not. Such Scenarios do not challenge me in any significant way because - ta da - I still don't drink.

Let's get Program Newcomers through the Early Days here, and start another Thread, perhaps, on advanced or arcane Scenarios.

Once the Beast is stringently compartmentalized outside ourselves, I find dealing with it - and completely shutting it down - about as daunting as dumping a small, annoying piece of Gravel out of my Shoe.

Don't Over-Think.

Don't Drink.
.
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Old 12-11-2016, 05:31 AM
  # 119 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by terall View Post
If anything, would put someone off AVRT it would be the bollocks on this thread!
Yep. This is precisely why I will no longer claim to do AVRT. It is too close to the "thumping" I experienced elsewhere.
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Old 12-11-2016, 06:17 AM
  # 120 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jazzfish View Post
Yep. This is precisely why I will no longer claim to do AVRT. It is too close to the "thumping" I experienced elsewhere.
Hello Jazzfish, I'm just a little confused about your above statement. I'm not being argumentive (I love your posts) it's just that I don't understand why you no longer claim to do AVRT. After making my BP and experiencing daily the ACE, I want to race around proclaiming the efficacy of this technique, after being lost in the throws of addiction for over two decades. I would not claim to not not do AVRT, quite the opposite.

So I just wondered what was behind your statement?
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