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Originally Posted by GerandTwine 
Nevertheless, I feel perfectly comfortable that I do NOT have much Addictive Voice activity, and if I were to put a value on that fact, I would say “I like it. It’s a good feature of my present life, even given my whole life perspective with a serious fifteen year addiction in my early adulthood.”
You are obviously securely abstinent, but I believe we do those who are not a great disservice by not exposing this idea as the Addictive Voice itself. It implies fear of one's own bodily desires, and suggests that the Beast could come in from the parking lot after doing push-ups and get them if they don't stay vigilant or engage in defensive rituals.
Ordinarily, I might ask why it's good to have no desire to drink, or very little AV activity.
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Originally Posted by flame11
Just thinking about what I said about getting to know my Beast better....is that AV or am I over thinking this?
This would be similar to the idea of relapse prevention, which is predicated on an enduring plan to drink under certain special conditions. AVRT is more like an automatic, self-aiming weapon, and we can let the Beast make the first move, knowing that we are safe from IT.
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Originally Posted by Algorithm
I agree in principle, GT, but one of the most vexing forms of the Addictive Voice is the idea that it is somehow good if we do not have the desire to drink, or the AV activity that accompanies that desire. The Beast cunningly boasts of its own silence, in order to conceal its immutable nature, and in order to conceal its imperative, buzz-seeking agenda.
You are obviously securely abstinent, but I believe we do those who are not a great disservice by not exposing this idea as the Addictive Voice itself. It implies fear of one's own bodily desires, and suggests that the Beast could come in from the parking lot after doing push-ups and get them if they don't stay vigilant or engage in defensive rituals.
Ordinarily, I might ask why it's good to have no desire to drink, or very little AV activity.
You are obviously securely abstinent, but I believe we do those who are not a great disservice by not exposing this idea as the Addictive Voice itself. It implies fear of one's own bodily desires, and suggests that the Beast could come in from the parking lot after doing push-ups and get them if they don't stay vigilant or engage in defensive rituals.
Ordinarily, I might ask why it's good to have no desire to drink, or very little AV activity.
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How to use The Extinction Curve in AVRT
Originally Posted by Algorithm
Once born, the Beast never dies. With sustained abstinence, however, it will probably follow a typical extinction curve, with decreasing frequency of activity over time, and the occasional spike here and there.
If, following the statement you made above, you were to add, "I think that extinction curve is a desireable feature of the nature of the Beast." then, as I understand it, you would believe this additional sentence would be your Addictive Voice chiming in in an attempt to get you to drink some more.
I agree that is an acceptable application of AVRT. But there is more here.
This brings up the way of organizing thoughts as second, third and higher order REcognition.
1 - stream of thought
2 - stopping to think about that stream of thought
3 - evaluating what I had stopped to think about that stream of thought
4 - re-evaluating what I had evaluated about what I had stopped to think about that first stream of thought
5 - etc, etc
The key about all this is that the Addictive Voice can be any or all of these areas of thought.
So, back to the idea of "the extinction curve" - What is really going on if "I" am not supposed to accept good thoughts about the existence of the extinction curve as my own, and I must always re-evaluate such thoughts as the Addictive Voice?
Isn't it also possible to say, upon further evaluation of "the liking of the extinction curve", that it's the Beast that doesn't want me to have any good feelings about the fact that IT will diminish in strength over time. That would also seem to support the future use of alcohol.
GT
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Originally Posted by Algorithm
I agree in principle, GT, but one of the most vexing forms of the Addictive Voice is the idea that it is somehow good if we do not have the desire to drink, or the AV activity that accompanies that desire. The Beast cunningly boasts of its own silence, in order to conceal its immutable nature, and in order to conceal its imperative, buzz-seeking agenda.
You are obviously securely abstinent, but I believe we do those who are not a great disservice by not exposing this idea as the Addictive Voice itself. It implies fear of one's own bodily desires, and suggests that the Beast could come in from the parking lot after doing push-ups and get them if they don't stay vigilant or engage in defensive rituals.
Ordinarily, I might ask why it's good to have no desire to drink, or very little AV activity.
You are obviously securely abstinent, but I believe we do those who are not a great disservice by not exposing this idea as the Addictive Voice itself. It implies fear of one's own bodily desires, and suggests that the Beast could come in from the parking lot after doing push-ups and get them if they don't stay vigilant or engage in defensive rituals.
Ordinarily, I might ask why it's good to have no desire to drink, or very little AV activity.
But for us more recently abstinent via AVRT, the thought that there's little AV activity must be viewed as AV. Because if it were not viewed as such, the next ploy the AV would use, would be to say suchlike as 'we're OK to take a drink, we hardly have any AV activity; we don't fixate and obsess on drinking anymore, therefore we can be 'normal' and drink as normal drinkers do, occasionally etc., etc.,'
For this reason, I agree with the above quote from Algorithm.
This issue is very pertinent to me, because currently I have little AV activity, whilst I'm busy rebuilding my life. Yet, I cannot view 'not much AV' as a 'good' thing, because it would be at my peril.
Given my age, I may never reach the stage you're at (I didn't stop drinking as young as you) I may shrink and die, before my AV does. So I live with my AV and ignore it and don't view it as a good thing when it goes quiet. ITs always there, waiting to pounce.
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Are there degrees of "securely abstinent"?
My own answer to the subject question of this post is, yes. And my reason for that is that people can be abstinent with various degrees of security, but only without having made a Big Plan ("I will never drink again.") So I agree with Algorithm and Tatsy that there are degrees of "securely abstinent".
But, once a person has made the Big Plan, there are no more "degrees" of abstinence security. How could there be? I can attest that more than three decades after having made a vow of permanent abstinence, I had serious Beast Activity regarding the end of taking a prescription for hydrocodone. It was just as easy then as it was long ago To Know That I Had Made The Big Plan. How can one possibly forget that they made the Big Plan with a mind altering substance "dangling" in front of their face?
The point I'm trying to make here is that practicing AVRT perfectly every minute of every day does not make sense without having made the Big Plan, because as soon as the awareness that The Big Plan exists for anyone to take, it is the AV of the Beast that is in constant control until the Big Plan IS taken.
So, when I provide information here on what it's like to be abstinent 12,000 + days down the road, I am simply adding to the record for people to take it for what it's worth to them - and their Beast.
If someone here has NOT made the Big Plan and hears me say I like that the extinction curve exists, that may prompt the type of thoughts that Tatsy is reporting and may be a factor towards someone drinking again. So, make the Big Plan.
But, I also think that reporting what it's like for this Phormer Drunk way down the road is useful information to get on the record. That's why I do it. So, I think the benefits outweight the costs.
And, of course, here we are turning it into an opportunity to practice more AVRT.
GT
But, once a person has made the Big Plan, there are no more "degrees" of abstinence security. How could there be? I can attest that more than three decades after having made a vow of permanent abstinence, I had serious Beast Activity regarding the end of taking a prescription for hydrocodone. It was just as easy then as it was long ago To Know That I Had Made The Big Plan. How can one possibly forget that they made the Big Plan with a mind altering substance "dangling" in front of their face?
The point I'm trying to make here is that practicing AVRT perfectly every minute of every day does not make sense without having made the Big Plan, because as soon as the awareness that The Big Plan exists for anyone to take, it is the AV of the Beast that is in constant control until the Big Plan IS taken.
So, when I provide information here on what it's like to be abstinent 12,000 + days down the road, I am simply adding to the record for people to take it for what it's worth to them - and their Beast.
If someone here has NOT made the Big Plan and hears me say I like that the extinction curve exists, that may prompt the type of thoughts that Tatsy is reporting and may be a factor towards someone drinking again. So, make the Big Plan.
But, I also think that reporting what it's like for this Phormer Drunk way down the road is useful information to get on the record. That's why I do it. So, I think the benefits outweight the costs.
And, of course, here we are turning it into an opportunity to practice more AVRT.
GT
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GerandTwine, I obviously didn't make my point clearly enough. I have made a Big Plan. I am securely abstinent. I care not whether my AV cries out for alcohol all day, or not at all. If it cries out, I ignore.....if it's absent, I ignore its absence ( i.e. don't view it as 'good' because it might be using its absence to do push-ups in the car park).
What concerned me though, is newcomers (this is a new to AVRT thread) who are becoming acquainted with and learning AVRT. Because you saying that the absence of the AV is 'good'. When I learnt AVRT recently, the presence of the AV or lack thereof, was neither good nor bad. I don't drink, whatever the AV is doing, or plotting......
What concerned me though, is newcomers (this is a new to AVRT thread) who are becoming acquainted with and learning AVRT. Because you saying that the absence of the AV is 'good'. When I learnt AVRT recently, the presence of the AV or lack thereof, was neither good nor bad. I don't drink, whatever the AV is doing, or plotting......
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What is concerning to me about someone just learning of these ideas is to think that they may be intimidated into thinking that they may 'do it' wrong.
"I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind"
"I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind"
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Cripes! There's alot of stuff written on here since my last post. I don't feel experienced enough to join the debate.
Mesaman, thanks for your post its encouraging to think that the AV noise will lesson over time. I like that you said that with the BP/AVRT sobriety can be immediate, but having it become the new normal takes time. That is just about where I'm at right now. I'm enjoying my new normal.
Since I made my BP I feel confidant/ secure that I will never drink/drug again and I will never change my mind. I am well equipped to deal with the AV...Any thought/ feeling of drinking/drugging, in whatever guise it presents itself to me.
I think it's good to know that absence of AV is not either a good or bad thing, not black nor white. I've found it helpful to read these post. Although I can't add anything to the discussion. I'm just pleased that I don't drink/drug.
Mesaman, thanks for your post its encouraging to think that the AV noise will lesson over time. I like that you said that with the BP/AVRT sobriety can be immediate, but having it become the new normal takes time. That is just about where I'm at right now. I'm enjoying my new normal.
Since I made my BP I feel confidant/ secure that I will never drink/drug again and I will never change my mind. I am well equipped to deal with the AV...Any thought/ feeling of drinking/drugging, in whatever guise it presents itself to me.
I think it's good to know that absence of AV is not either a good or bad thing, not black nor white. I've found it helpful to read these post. Although I can't add anything to the discussion. I'm just pleased that I don't drink/drug.
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Originally Posted by Tatsy
GerandTwine, I obviously didn't make my point clearly enough. I have made a Big Plan. I am securely abstinent. I care not whether my AV cries out for alcohol all day, or not at all. If it cries out, I ignore.....if it's absent, I ignore its absence ( i.e. don't view it as 'good' because it might be using its absence to do push-ups in the car park).
What concerned me though, is newcomers (this is a new to AVRT thread) who are becoming acquainted with and learning AVRT. Because you saying that the absence of the AV is 'good'. When I learnt AVRT recently, the presence of the AV or lack thereof, was neither good nor bad. I don't drink, whatever the AV is doing, or plotting....
What concerned me though, is newcomers (this is a new to AVRT thread) who are becoming acquainted with and learning AVRT. Because you saying that the absence of the AV is 'good'. When I learnt AVRT recently, the presence of the AV or lack thereof, was neither good nor bad. I don't drink, whatever the AV is doing, or plotting....
I do believe you have made your Big Plan. I was speaking about "the type of thoughts" you were reporting that others might be thinking, specifically -
Originally Posted by Tatsy
'we're OK to take a drink, we hardly have any AV activity; we don't fixate and obsess on drinking anymore, therefore we can be 'normal' and drink as normal drinkers do, occasionally etc., etc.,'
GT
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine
Isn't it also possible to say, upon further evaluation of "the liking of the extinction curve", that it's the Beast that doesn't want me to have any good feelings about the fact that IT will diminish in strength over time. That would also seem to support the future use of alcohol.
Since the Beast cannot control the voluntary muscles, it must resort to cunning. It can either undermine my confidence to abstain, as for example, by suggesting that it is somehow good if the AV didn't exist, or were less active, or most often, by trying to conceal its existence, by appearing to be 'me', so that ITS desire appears to be my own.
Of course, it could always simply beg for a drink, but its cover would be blown, and that wouldn't get it much traction.
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Originally Posted by Algorithm
I believe the key here is to recognize that the Beast has no strength at all, but that it is certainly cunning in creating that illusion, by means of the Addictive Voice. In other words, it doesn't matter how many push-ups the Beast does in the parking lot, but it does matter whether or not I believe that it matters.
Since the Beast cannot control the voluntary muscles, it must resort to cunning. It can either undermine my confidence to abstain, as for example, by suggesting that it is somehow good if the AV didn't exist, or were less active, or most often, by trying to conceal its existence, by appearing to be 'me', so that ITS desire appears to be my own.
Of course, it could always simply beg for a drink, but its cover would be blown, and that wouldn't get it much traction.
Since the Beast cannot control the voluntary muscles, it must resort to cunning. It can either undermine my confidence to abstain, as for example, by suggesting that it is somehow good if the AV didn't exist, or were less active, or most often, by trying to conceal its existence, by appearing to be 'me', so that ITS desire appears to be my own.
Of course, it could always simply beg for a drink, but its cover would be blown, and that wouldn't get it much traction.
The "strength" I was referring to was the strength of the frequency, not the strength of the Beast.
Yes, clarity IS important.
In the hard sciences, higher frequency usually means higher energy, thus strength. Not so with the Beast.
Thank you,
GT
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Here's an analogy of how the AV might lie about IT's "strength".
And here's where that AV lie was picked up and mistaken as true.
So it's good the the AV lie was further exposed here.
Yes, language is important, and thinking about thinking about thinking about ...
So, I believe AVRT is not complicated at all. And I cannot overemphasize the importance of the Big Plan. Without it, for me, AVRT is an exercise in frustration. I underwent that frustration here on SR severeal years ago before I made the Big Plan for man made sweets. My repeated choice to NOT make the Big Plan for sweets simply rendered me a hostile witness against myself in the Beast's court of Candyland. Once I made that Big Plan (right here on SR) my AV became crystal clear and the separation was immediate and profound. I actually felt the presence of that other entity that had been resisting the Big Plan. I knew I had beaten it. My past experiences with utilizing the Big Plan on other abstinences made it all the easier to immediately move on with my life.
GT
Originally Posted by Algorithm
It [the AV] implies fear of one's own bodily desires, and suggests that the Beast could come in from the parking lot after doing push-ups and get them if they don't stay vigilant or engage in defensive rituals.
Originally Posted by Tatsy
...if it's absent, I ignore its absence ( i.e. don't view it as 'good' because it might be using its absence to do push-ups in the car park).
Originally Posted by Algorithm
... it doesn't matter how many push-ups the Beast does in the parking lot, but it does matter whether or not I believe that it matters.
So, I believe AVRT is not complicated at all. And I cannot overemphasize the importance of the Big Plan. Without it, for me, AVRT is an exercise in frustration. I underwent that frustration here on SR severeal years ago before I made the Big Plan for man made sweets. My repeated choice to NOT make the Big Plan for sweets simply rendered me a hostile witness against myself in the Beast's court of Candyland. Once I made that Big Plan (right here on SR) my AV became crystal clear and the separation was immediate and profound. I actually felt the presence of that other entity that had been resisting the Big Plan. I knew I had beaten it. My past experiences with utilizing the Big Plan on other abstinences made it all the easier to immediately move on with my life.
GT
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Well, lots of AV noise or little AV noise...neither way can make me drink. But hell, it feels good not to have lots of AV noise. It feels good for that sh*tty little wretch not to be all up in my grill. But my AV can't twist and use that against me, because I don't drink.
My goal per se is not to be rid of the noise, but it is a by-product of practicing AVRT, wouldn't you say?
My goal per se is not to be rid of the noise, but it is a by-product of practicing AVRT, wouldn't you say?
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Originally Posted by soberlicious
But hell, it feels good not to have lots of AV noise. It feels good for that sh*tty little wretch not to be all up in my grill. But my AV can't twist and use that against me, because I don't drink.
My goal per se is not to be rid of the noise, but it is a by-product of practicing AVRT, wouldn't you say?
My goal per se is not to be rid of the noise, but it is a by-product of practicing AVRT, wouldn't you say?
It has also been postulated here, that we do a great disservice to people here who are not securely abstinent when we say that we feel good about that unless we make sure to identify those feelings as belonging to our Beast. I pointed out that only those without a Big Plan are those who are not securely abstinent. So, make a Big Plan. Maybe it's not a disservice after all to identify some satisfaction of the fact of the extinction curve; extinction of frequency not strength, because the Beast has no strength to begin with.
Here's a further question to toss into the mix - Once I forgot what the sensation of being under the influence of alcohol felt like (and I HAVE completely forgotten that sensation) should I consider that dangerous in AVRT terms? ... that the Beast now has a leg up on me, now that that healthy but misplaced desire I used to have is completely gone?
Or is IT fooling me that I have no memory of that sensation. Should I try harder to practice "shifting" and try harder to bring back what that old sensation felt like so I can truly be at home again with an unwanted desire that has no connection to my voluntary muscles?
Upon further evaluation of the fact that I do not recall the sensation of the old pleasure of having any amount of alcohol in my blood, and in combination with having made a Big Plan decades ago, I believe it is incorrect to identify satisfaction from that loss of recall as coming from the Beast. If I were to identify that satisfaction as coming from the Beast, I believe that would be like taking a corner of my living room and building an altar to the Beast with a bottle of Chivas Regal flanked by two candles and every day opening the bottle and letting the aroma waft under my nose. Doing that would be completely harmless and I know I would have absolutely no anxiety if I were to do just that, but I believe it is clearly unnecessary.
GT
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine
Hi Tatsy,
I do believe you have made your Big Plan. I was speaking about "the type of thoughts" you were reporting that others might be thinking, specifically -
As a "New to AVRT" thread I believe it is important to emphasize the importance of the Big Plan right from the start, and the taking or not taking the Big Plan is what's behind the recent dialogue here.
GT
I do believe you have made your Big Plan. I was speaking about "the type of thoughts" you were reporting that others might be thinking, specifically -
As a "New to AVRT" thread I believe it is important to emphasize the importance of the Big Plan right from the start, and the taking or not taking the Big Plan is what's behind the recent dialogue here.
GT
Thank you for your time and patience in clarifying. your Big Plan point. This thread contains a vast amount of valuable information and advice.
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Hmm, I have never thought about all of this. I do not care when the AV is silent, I do not care when it is "noisy" I do not care whether or not there is Beast activity, I don't dwell upon it when it isn't there, I don't dwell upon it when it is there, I just recognise it, and am indifferent to it.
That's all I did/do and that is all it has taken to work for me. And yes, that is because of the Big Plan, I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.
But then again, I am not very inturelectrall haha
That's all I did/do and that is all it has taken to work for me. And yes, that is because of the Big Plan, I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.
But then again, I am not very inturelectrall haha
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GT as always you bring up very interesting questions and topics.
AVRT notwithstanding , what does it mean to 'remember' a sensation? I'm not sure if it is possible in that the experience of perception is 'in the moment' for lack of a better term.
When I perceive the aroma of a lilac bush I am aware of the particular effects of that aroma and its interaction with my oral-factory 'mechanism'. Though if I were to think of 'what lilac smells like' , I basically know that I would 'remember' and be able to identify the smell when I encounter it. But no matter how 'hard' I think about and try to remember the sensation/perception of the smell ,that in and of itself, does not allow me to experience it.
For me , a little over three years into my experience of being a purposeful nondrinker, I remember /know that my Beast loves the sensation of inebriation, I don't 'remember' the sensation other than how I would remember what lilac 'smells' like away from the bush. Plus ( the biggest and bestest plus) is my BP is designed to handle either case
AVRT notwithstanding , what does it mean to 'remember' a sensation? I'm not sure if it is possible in that the experience of perception is 'in the moment' for lack of a better term.
When I perceive the aroma of a lilac bush I am aware of the particular effects of that aroma and its interaction with my oral-factory 'mechanism'. Though if I were to think of 'what lilac smells like' , I basically know that I would 'remember' and be able to identify the smell when I encounter it. But no matter how 'hard' I think about and try to remember the sensation/perception of the smell ,that in and of itself, does not allow me to experience it.
For me , a little over three years into my experience of being a purposeful nondrinker, I remember /know that my Beast loves the sensation of inebriation, I don't 'remember' the sensation other than how I would remember what lilac 'smells' like away from the bush. Plus ( the biggest and bestest plus) is my BP is designed to handle either case
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For at least two years after I quit for good, I had numerous drinking dreams, some that were repetitious in several Beast loving territories like bars, or picnics, or vacations spots. When I awoke and recalled some of what I had dreamt I would always have the immediate sense that I was or had just been under the influence of alcohol with all the associated physical and mind altering sensations. It was fresh and present. The first few drinking dreams caused me some consternation, but I quickly accepted them as harmless. I've always liked that I can remember dreams in general. It's fun.
My Beast was like the Terminator that fell into the molten iron at the end of the movie. It was trying to morph into something, anything, that would bring it back into being able to make me move my muscles to drink booze again. I treat dreams like getting a free movie.
Those dreams gradually decreased in both strength and frequency. By strength, I mean vividness and volume of recall. In the very rare dreams of drinking or smoking pot I've had over the last 30 years, I have been very aware of knowing I had no real mind alteration in the dream even though I was drinking or smoking in the dream. In one, I did sense that I had behaved very tired and fatigued, but definitely not mind altered. I can only guess that any remenance of that sensation must be completely gone from my biological memory.
When I smell alcoholic beverages, they DO smell familiar, but still any memory of the biological effect of that in my blood is gone. I don't mind smelling alcoholic beverages, and I can recall their different smells even at this moment.
My Beast was like the Terminator that fell into the molten iron at the end of the movie. It was trying to morph into something, anything, that would bring it back into being able to make me move my muscles to drink booze again. I treat dreams like getting a free movie.
Those dreams gradually decreased in both strength and frequency. By strength, I mean vividness and volume of recall. In the very rare dreams of drinking or smoking pot I've had over the last 30 years, I have been very aware of knowing I had no real mind alteration in the dream even though I was drinking or smoking in the dream. In one, I did sense that I had behaved very tired and fatigued, but definitely not mind altered. I can only guess that any remenance of that sensation must be completely gone from my biological memory.
When I smell alcoholic beverages, they DO smell familiar, but still any memory of the biological effect of that in my blood is gone. I don't mind smelling alcoholic beverages, and I can recall their different smells even at this moment.
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine
Or is IT fooling me that I have no memory of that sensation. Should I try harder to practice "shifting" and try harder to bring back what that old sensation felt like so I can truly be at home again with an unwanted desire that has no connection to my voluntary muscles?
GT
When I say "unwanted desire" above, I am not talking about someone who has the desire and wishes they didn't have it because that wish is the AV fooling its host. I am talking about someone who does not have the desire, and is wondering if they would like to acquire it either for the first time or regain it after it has been extinguished by the passage of time and the eternal presence of the Big Plan.
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