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Old 12-04-2016, 05:09 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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flame11
You Can Do It!And you can do it right Now any doubt or idea that a BP can't be adopted straight away is the Beast talking. The doubt and the need for it to happen ,even in the near future is the presence of the AV , a BP doesn't kill the Beast, just the drinking. The AV won't allow for the belief that you can and do deserve to live your BP, but I Know you can and deserve to, rootin for ya
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Old 12-04-2016, 12:37 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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Thanks dwtdb,
Been thinking about what you said and yes you're totally right. I don't want to drink and I can make a Big Plan right NOW. IT dosent want me too, and i am allowing IT to stop me, with doubts and fears that belong to IT and not me. IT says that this is a load of BS and it wont be any different to anything else ive tried. It says i will never be able to even make a BP let alone stick to it. IT says a BP is too extreme. IT says leave the door open a little bit..you never know you might be ok to drink one day. IT says how is it even possible to never drink again, you wont be able to do that. IT tells me that I'm lying. So if I recognise this, there is nothing to actually stop me making a BP. It isn't me that wants to continue experimenting with ways to drink, it's my Beast. I KNOW that there is No way that any future use of alchol/drugs is going to be any different for me, IT doesn't know that, IT just wants what IT wants and can not think about how this effects me and my life. It's not like IT doesn't care IT'S a desire IT can not think or feel. IT needs my permission, my cooperation to indulge IT.

Part of me (me) is now thinking right that's it! I'm a strong person and there is No way I'm going to let this beat me! I'd like to declare war against my Beast! ( I don't know if that's a good way to think/feel using AVRT but I just felt it). I will live and I do deserve to live alcohol/drug free.

This has now become my choice, my responsibility. I like how these words make me feel...in control of my own life. I feel excited about my future. With the RGM I didn't feel in control of my life I felt like I had to do X to get X result and this drove me mad on a daily basis, constant analysis of my motives and actions. A belief that I deserved X because I had done X. What I like about AVRT/ BP is that I don't expect anything. I won't drink alcohol or take drugs ever again and what happens in my life is up to me.

My AV is now saying...you can't do this it can't be so simple as saying I will never use alcohol/drugs again and I will never change my mind. ITs saying that what i have just written is BS and im lying. I say that any thought, feeling or image that supports future using is not ME.
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Old 12-04-2016, 12:50 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flame11
My AV is now saying...you can't do this it can't be so simple as saying I will never use alcohol/drugs again and I will never change my mind. ITs saying that what i have just written is BS and im lying.
Of course it is...not a shocker there. The AV is so predictable really.

IT can bugger off. YOU don't drink.

IT will get used to it. Trust me on that.
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Old 12-04-2016, 01:24 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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Thanks soberlicious,
Sounds like you are totally on top of your AV. I liked your comment " of course it did..not a shocker there" made me laugh. L want to ask the question, when you started AVRT did you always recognise your AV? Or maybe a better question is how long did it take to feel comfortable to recognise it acknowledge IT and separate from IT? I imagine you always recognise it because it's any thought, feeling or image that supports future using.
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Old 12-04-2016, 01:30 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flame11 View Post
I'm a strong person and there is No way I'm going to let this beat me! I'd like to declare war against my Beast! ( I don't know if that's a good way to think/feel using AVRT but I just felt it). I will live and I do deserve to live alcohol/drug free.
Yes, that's it, flame !!! Declare war on your Beast !!!

Addiction recovery is a fight for survival, and AVRT is the art of all-out war!

Let the Beast starve, and be glad that IT suffers as IT starves, after all that IT has put your through!

Recovery with an attitude!
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Old 12-04-2016, 01:55 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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The question I asked was AV! How long will it take? It starts right now and I will always know what I'm thinking, if it relates to future use! So please ignore that question

Thanks Algorithm,
Yes all out war sounds good to me. Either IT survives or I do. No competition there! IT will (if IT could) regret ever meeting ME!
IT will be deprived of IT'S precious alcohol. I WILL win and my prize will be my freedom.
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Old 12-04-2016, 02:19 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flame11
L want to ask the question, when you started AVRT did you always recognise your AV? Or maybe a better question is how long did it take to feel comfortable to recognise it acknowledge IT and separate from IT? I imagine you always recognise it because it's any thought, feeling or image that supports future using.
Well, I quit in my early 20's and remained happily abstinent for 10 years, no meetings or program of any kind. I decided I didn't have a problem after 10 years because who can easily go 10 years and actually have a real problem? LOL I didn't know about AVRT then, but I did know all about "alcoholism" so I decided I wasn't a "real alcoholic". So long story short, I drank daily for 7 years until I was involuntarily placed in the psych ward for a suicide attempt. So to answer your question, no the first time around I had no concept of separation.

In the psych ward I quit, the same way I had the first time, by vowing never to drink again and was successful. After that, I began to study Buddhism. The idea of seeing cravings as "outside of me" is the beginning of learning that I could separate and not act on thoughts/desires/cravings. This is what was different from the first time I quit. A few years after quitting, I learned about AVRT and the discussions here on it. When I joined here, I was like "Ohhhh, this is so similar to what I've been studying." It was pointed out to me by a member here that AVRT is based on self-recovery, just the way I had quit both times, but I see that there was a huge missing piece and that was the separation component. When I experienced what I now know as a vertigo Beast attack after 10 years of abstinence, I was defenseless because I did not know how to separate. The beast and I were one and the same in my mind. So, I say I am not an "AVRT person" lol but I actually am. I just came to the technique the way so many did before me, which is what Trimpey based his work on...the self-recovered. The nice thing is, it is so much easier and more concise and right there to read in his book and on these threads, so people can self-recover quickly. I'm grateful for learning about it here on SR, even though I had already been a non-drinker for about 4 years when I did. It served to tweak my understanding so that a reversal would never be possible again.
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Old 12-04-2016, 02:26 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flame11 View Post
The question I asked was AV! How long will it take? It starts right now and I will always know what I'm thinking, if it relates to future use!

... I WILL win and my prize will be my freedom.
This is also your Addictive Voice. You "will" win, or you have won?

If it starts right now, and you will always know what you are thinking as it pertains to the future use of alcohol, then you have already won, no?

Set your confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100%, and simply recognize all self doubt as your Addictive Voice -- as the Beast barking.

By the way, just what exactly is your plan for your future use of alcohol and other drugs?
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Old 12-04-2016, 03:51 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Thankyou for explaining that to me Soberlicious. What I get from your post is that, the AV never goes away not even after a lengthy period of abstaining. I also get that you need all the elements of AVRT to be successful, recognition and seperation. It was very helpful to me when you said "the Beast and I were one and the same in my mind" . This is the crux of it for me, seperation from the Beast desire to drink and my desire to abstain. I must see the Beast as separate from me. I might use some visualisation to help with this. Does anybody else do that?? Or is it a silly idea? Just think that if I can imagine/picture my Beast as a separate entity (I know it's not actually) it might be helpful.

Where I live there are a couple of people I know who are self recovered. This used to confuse me alot because of what I had learnt in my past recovery method. I too am grateful that Trimpey put his findings together in his book. I'm also grateful for SR and this forum it's amazing.
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Old 12-04-2016, 04:00 PM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Thanks Algorithm, I get it.
I actually felt a bit odd writing that line, like there was no need for me to voice that! Thanks for pointing it out to me. Yes I have already won.

My future use of alcohol and other drugs? I don't drink and I don't take drugs so there is no future for them in my future. They have no future.

Setting my confidence levels arbitrarily at 100%.
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Old 12-04-2016, 04:22 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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And I will never change my mind about my future use of alcohol and drugs.
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Old 12-04-2016, 04:50 PM
  # 52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flame11 View Post
What I get from your post is that, the AV never goes away not even after a lengthy period of abstaining.
That is correct. Once born, the Beast never dies. With sustained abstinence, however, it will probably follow a typical extinction curve, with decreasing frequency of activity over time, and the occasional spike here and there.

That said, this is not guaranteed, and any desire for the absence of desire, or of the AV, is the Addictive Voice itself. In the logic of AVRT, the desire for the absence of AV is simply a plan to drink in the presence of AV.

Originally Posted by flame11 View Post
I also get that you need all the elements of AVRT to be successful, recognition and seperation.
Strictly speaking, the Big Plan is all you need to be successful, but AVRT makes things a whole lot easier. The goal in AVRT-based recovery is to live comfortably with residual addictive desire.

Originally Posted by flame11 View Post
This is the crux of it for me, seperation from the Beast desire to drink and my desire to abstain. I must see the Beast as separate from me. I might use some visualisation to help with this.
The AVRT Matrix may be useful:

AVRT Matrix -

It's easy to remember, but I recommend printing it out and placing a copy somewhere in your RR:TNC book for easy reference.
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:22 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the helpful link Algorithm.

I don't have a working printer at the moment but I can draw this by hand. It is a simple diagram with a very clear message for my brain to remember.

I don't expect my AV to dissappear because I've made my BP. In fact I want IT to reveal ITself to me. I want to get to know my enemy. Im going to practise the shifting excercice. I will never be dominated or suffer again. because my Beast wants a fix. I am more powerful and stronger than IT.

I feel such a big shift in my consciousness. I am well armed and ready to deal with whatever IT wants to throw at me. ITS suffering is my release.

ANY self doubt belongs to IT not me.

Soberlicious I liked what you said in another post regarding ODAAT recovery. You compared it with telling a child 'we'll see" and a more affirmative "No". I am a mother and the difference between these two statements is immense! Verb helpful, thankyou.
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Old 12-05-2016, 05:01 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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Just thinking about what I said about getting to know my Beast better....is that AV or am I over thinking this? Only it just occurred to me that I know my Beast very well already ITs thoughts and feelings, been living with IT for years, so of course I do...just a thought...
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Old 12-05-2016, 05:10 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Flame, I'd don't know how I missed this yesterday! You've made your BP! That's amazing, you're awesome and I'm so thrilled for you.

I'm a mother too and Soberlicious ' comparison between ODAAT and the BP and the comparative effectiveness in controlling a disruptive, demanding AV/toddler, is so true. A BP and practising AVRT is so powerful, such a line drawn in the sand. Whereas ODAAT is weak and involves fighting, resisting, reasoning.......the Beast loves, it, relishes it, 'never say never says IT, give me one of those delicious relapses which I enjoy....you can start again tomorrow, ODAAT.'

I'm so glad I discovered self-recovery, it's such a relief and liberation from addiction.
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Old 12-05-2016, 08:25 AM
  # 56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
ODAAT is weak and involves fighting, resisting, reasoning.......the Beast loves, it, relishes it, 'never say never says IT, give me one of those delicious relapses which I enjoy....you can start again tomorrow, ODAAT.'
"Tell the bartender that I'll have one double relapse on the rocks. She can put it on my tab."
Your Beast
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Old 12-05-2016, 02:02 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
"Tell the bartender that I'll have one double relapse on the rocks. She can put it on my tab."
Your Beast
Love it.
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Old 12-05-2016, 06:11 PM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Flame11 ~

What I found as I near 3 Years in is that the AV Decibel Level inside my Head lessens, and the intervals between any interaction with it lengthen. Meh...

I would liken it to moving away from a Train Track. Moving away from near an Airport Runway. Moving away from near a Freeway. Most Folks adapt to being near such noise, and don't even realize it. THEN, they move to a quiet location and only then realize all the 'noise' they lived with prior. And, how crazy and unnerving it was to live that way.

Your current level of AV 'noise' doesn't continue unabated. Most of us can't imagine that lack of AV 'noise' early on until you're away from it longer [further into Sobriety].

I'm now a former Drinker, and don't really give it much thought. I'm periodically vigilant, on a low-key level, but not paranoid. I'm done. With AVRT, Sobriety can be immediate. Having it become 'The New Normal' - and familiar - simply takes time.
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:11 PM
  # 59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MesaMan View Post
Your current level of AV 'noise' doesn't continue unabated. Most of us can't imagine that lack of AV 'noise' early on until you're away from it longer [further into Sobriety].
This is true, but once again, the goal in AVRT-based recovery is to live comfortably with residual addictive desire (ie, the Beast), and not to silence, debate with, ward off, or run away from its Addictive Voice. The Big Plan is a little like a marriage vow, only without the option of divorce.

The Beast is driven towards its favorite fix, just as our sex drive is driven towards certain people, many of whom are not our partners. The AV is conspicuous by its movement towards the object of the Beast's affection, and we don't need to stay vigilant for AV, any more than we need to stay vigilant for impure thoughts in order to stay faithful.

Neither do we want to silence the Addictive Voice, or to remove the Beast, any more than we would want to be neutered in order to silence impure thoughts. We welcome the AV as a sign of good health, and not as a threat, because the Beast is utterly powerless to engage the voluntary muscles.

The presence of AV is not bad, and the absence of AV is not good.

Originally Posted by MesaMan View Post
With AVRT, Sobriety can be immediate. Having it become 'The New Normal' - and familiar - simply takes time.
It takes time for the Beast. It must adapt to its new cage.

But why should anyone care what IT feels?
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Old 12-06-2016, 01:19 AM
  # 60 (permalink)  
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I like the two immediate previous posts in how they portray AVRT with what appears to be some personal perspective in their use of analogy. I think analogies can never be perfect representations and the comparative variations can be taken advantage of to prompt further thought on the original subject, AVRT.

They lead me to think more about the healthiness of having The Beast in regards to Algorithm’s post, and in Mesa Man’s post of the simple fact that the AV will diminish in frequency in the average phormer drunk’s (PhD’s) life as a common teetotaler (although not as a member of the Recovery Group Movement IN perpetual recovery).

In further thought on the healthiness of the Beast, I am taken all the way to contemplating life - and death. Not the hypothetical death of the Beast, but the eventual certain death of every living thing, especially me; to make room for the slightly different newly born. Just as accepting that the Beast is a HEALTHY entity within me as the motivation of a killer appetite, so, death of the individual is the first and primary necessity of the continuing existence of life itself. Desire, like Death, is basically good.

I am about ¾ through my life and way over 10,000 days away from my last drink. I have learned that when I contemplate my end, death smiles at me, and I can lovingly smile back within myself understanding its inevitable goodness and with sadness at the same time. When I quit drinking for good I had a similar grief over the very real awareness of the death of the sensation of being under the influence of alcohol, not the desire for it. Today, I remember the grief more than the sensation. Why? Because as a person who loves I will inevitably feel grief. It’s part of the cycle. So, yes, the Beast is a healthy part of a human organism that was once addicted, and death is a healthy part of continuing life on earth.

In further thought on the frequency of my Addictive Voice, I realize that for many years, up until I came onto SR to post about AVRT, I have behaved no differently than anyone else who has never, and will never have a drink in their lives; It is only by telling people that I was once addicted to alcohol, that they would ever know. Having a Beast of Booze and Drugs and remembering my Big Plan, and using AVRT on myself is a completely internal thought process that has taken up only a few minutes out of the last ten years of my life. I think of the time and money I’ve saved by NOT being a needy member of the Recovery Group Movement, let alone mindset. Yayyy!!

I’ve had about three drinking dreams in the last ten years and in them I did not experience the drunken sensation that I had in my early drinking dreams. I am simply unable to recall what that pleasure felt like. In fact in my last drinking dream, there was absolutely no mind alteration, but a sense of guilt that those who knew I ‘shouldn’t’ be drinking might find out. I think that one had to do with my sadness at the Beast wishing it had more hydrocodone after my two week prescription ran out two summers ago. My Beast really wanted some more painful illness to get a scrip! I can actually “shift” into that idea of getting more hydrocodone right now, although I can’t really recall the sensation of being ON that drug either. Yep, IT will never completely die.

Nevertheless, I feel perfectly comfortable that I do NOT have much Addictive Voice activity, and if I were to put a value on that fact, I would say “I like it. It’s a good feature of my present life, even given my whole life perspective with a serious fifteen year addiction in my early adulthood.” Besides Big Plans on caffeine and chocolate, another Big Plan I made was here on SR several years ago on man made sweets. Until I made that last Big Plan, I spent many weeks on AVRT with my sugar Beast. Since that Big Plan? HAH! Hardly any time spent at all! Yep. I wonder, does that make me a Big Plan Addict? LOL.

The subtleties of running with the variety of moods I have learned to CHOOSE is SOOOooo much nicer when I do not have to rely on outside substances. I know the differences. Time lasts longer. I get into details. I remember. I can really love. I can really BE MYSELF. I feel like Big Plans (or Big Planning as a potential tool of my will that is always on the table) are almost like discovering the fountain of youth. Does that mean I will take more chances on possibly becoming dependent upon something because I can always make a Big Plan? Hmmm. Maybe, until I go back to contemplating Life and Death. Everything seems to balance out.

GT
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