Calicofish

I am curious as to why simply suggesting to people that one can give up drinking by simply not picking up the next one, and never changing ones mind (no matter what) is not discussed at more length in the new comers forum? What is wrong with this type of advice?
CF

Axiom

When I was first sobering up I was given that advice and it pissed me off. I was confused, angry and scared. I didn't think it could possibly be that simple. I honestly thought people were being intentionally vague about how to maintain sobriety.

In some ways it is the best advice. In all honesty, staying sober is as simple as never drinking again. Everything else is extra. However, it doesn't address the issues that many people drank over. A lot of alcoholics that I have met, and myself, need lessons in basic life skills. I had to figure out healthy ways to processes my emotions.

So, rambling into my point. I don't give that advice because I remember how unfulfilling an answer it was for me when I was asking for help. I do believe sobriety is that simple though.

D122y

For me, the word never seemed impossible to achieve. It was too final.

I used the ODAT for a while, but now I am good with the word never.

It now seems good and final. ODAT seemed to leave me in a continuous state of concern about the next day once I was over the big cravings and anxiety attacks.

Never works for me now after 4 months, but it didn't work at 2 months.

NestWasEmpty

I don't think I have ever said that ever since I joined SR . I usually tell them to make a plan to stay stopped & read up on tools to help . There is "a lot " more to it than - just don't drink . Of course after you get the needed information after some time sober , then it is easier to tell yourself don't pick up .
In the end that's about how it is with life's problems . Easier said - Then done .
When I look at a bottle of alcohol , I make myself picture a Skull & Cross bones on it - POISON X

biminiblue

It really is just a decision that is made one time.

Everything that happens in life has a different solution other than picking up a drink.

In my case I needed to get off the self-pity pot. Seems to be a common affliction but alcohol certainly never helped, it just added another problem.

Calicofish

I agree that the word "never" is very daunting and certainly was for me. I came to terms with it, realizing that making the decision to never pick up again is the key for never having to face another Day 1. It seems to me that not making that decision gives one permission to relapse sometime in the future. I think Trimpey called it a "juicy relapse".

dwtbd

Never can be daunting, and the AV will certainly make us into cannon fodder over the daunting ness. I came to see that the bigger the twinge I "felt" at contemplating never was an indication of how much I needed to embrace the never, the idea that thinking about never drinking again, how difficult it seemed a life free of drinking would be, helped drive home the almost paradoxical idea of how far "down the rabbit hole" I was and continue to be.
The I remembered that at some point I must have made the decision to " never" again poop my pants , and it took a little more AV sting out of the concept of never. It was probably a little sketchy day to day at first, but I got the hang of it.

JeffreyAK

I think, nothing is wrong with it, it's true. But I think it's a helluva lot harder than "just say no" for most addicts, so in some ways it is misleading - the key word here is "simply".

freshstart57

It is indeed very simple. I believe the degree of difficulty is to a large extent completely up to us. We can make it hard or even impossible for ourselves to quit, Or we can work on that mindset and make it so much easier by setting ourselves up for success, by being mindful, by discarding false alternatives, some CBT, etc. Maybe even some AVRT.

GerandTwine

I believe it is only within this SC Forum on the SR website that the Addictive Voice is truly threatened by our constantly Recognizing IT through the Technique of AVRT. I think when it becomes impossible for the AV to continue to hide unrecognized within its host addict's conversation, only then does the Big Plan (or as you put it "not picking up the next one, and never changing ones mind (no matter what)") become the obvious permanent solution.

I also believe that is why days can pass here at SC without postings. People do not spin their "how to recover" conversational wheels nearly as much. I think of this SC Forum as the gem of SR. But, hey, that's just me.

Terminally Unique was good at surfing the Forums to recommend SC as an option for learning AVRT, but right now I choose not to spend the time for that. If people get here, and want to talk AVRT, then I'm interested.

Calicofish

I would agree that the fresh newcomer may not be open to the concept of NEVER. What about the repeat offenders? I've read some threads on SR from people who's latest posts are almost word-for-word of their first-ever posts (years back). I feel like I am sitting on the sidelines watching this really sad and predictable movie.

CF

Greenwood618

Yummy relapse was the phrase. People who are ignorant of the structural model of addiction are vulnerable to them.

samseb5351

Hi greenwood
There seems to be many structural models of addiction, which model are you referring too? Some of these models can be compatible and others in opposition.

MesaMan

.
Q: 'What is wrong with this type of advice?'

A: It is unpopular.

To contemplate this permanent Solution necessitates an unrelenting, no excuses appraisal with oneself. It requires not relegating any blame for Behavior to anyone else. Any Diety. Any Childhood experiences. Any Variable. Save true, Physiological Impairment like Trauma, or Brain damage.

Losing Weight requires non-negotiable steps like eating less. Losing Drunkenness requires never picking up. Residual Root Causes can then be tackled without the Albatross around your Neck of constant Ethanol-based Impairment. freshstart57's Concept. Not mine.

This Technique/Solution is not for the faint-Hearted.

I recall with extreme clarity a Member here accusing freshstart57 of stating the simplicity of this approach in order to make this Member 'feel bad' about his inability to achieve this Binary Decision to never again pick up. His Posts dripped with projected Blame. Forum Decorum dictates I leave it at that.

This 'exchange' here really opened my already-Sober Eyes to the self-deceit and depth intrinsic to not accepting full responsibility for one's actions. I view this Victim Complex as quite outside Addiction, and generally separate from it. Some Folks take responsibility. Some don't. Either you leave a Note on a Car in a Parking Lot when you hit it, or you don't.
,

jazzfish

There is this excellent post from Dee that gets right to the point: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post2531003

After perfectly summing up the cycle, he arrives at the point: "I finally realised the only way to stop the cycle is by not drinking - at all. Period."

I think the more subtle version (that used to regularly **** me off) is: "You'll get it when you want it." I used to hate that phrase, because I had no idea what they meant or what I could do about it. Really, though, it is just a statement that staying sober is a result of choosing not to drink. You can surround yourself with all the support and busy work you want, but until you make the choice to not drink, it is all for naught.

Elizabeth333

YES!!!!!! Thank you for your posts.

Greenwood618

I think it is far worse. I think recovery-ists perpetuate the drama of their flawed method precisely to create drinking opportunities, remorse and confession, absolution by the group, rededication to purification, followed by fall from grace, starting the cycle anew. The addiction is as much to the social aspects of the cycle as it is to alcohol.

JeffreyAK

Once upon a time I was a loud opponent of 12-step programs, a fist-shaking LifeRing secularist out to change the addiction recovery world and educate the unwashed masses about the true path. While individuals might still be able to push some of those old buttons, eventually I came to understand that it really doesn't matter what works for people, as long as it works. It would be haughty and condescending for me to suggest that folks following some other path are somehow inferior, or uneducated, or addicted to recovery, or cultists, or anything other than just people trying to get out of their own personal addiction holes with some sort of mindset and set of tools and coping mechanisms that work for them.

I might personally think some of the leaders in the secular recovery world are on the same warpath I was on, still, maybe after many years of sobriety, and others might join in shaking their own fists at alternative paths, but once again it doesn't really matter. If that's what keeps them sober and gives them a feeling of purpose in life, then who am I to judge.

Instead, over the years I've become a strong proponent of "whatever works for you is what you should do", not a fist-shaker. There's a serenity in this world-view that I never found as a fist-shaking secularist, and a path for me to put some of the old baggage away and move on in life.

There truly are as many different paths as there are people with substance abuse problems, and no one path is better than any other path, except for the one that you're on if it's working for you.