Algorithm

The Beast has no innate understanding of time, since it is only concerned with its present survival needs, and the immediate future. The Beast is essentially timeless, in the same way that animals in the jungle don't plan for their retirement. Their main concern is to eat and not get eaten long enough to reproduce.

Unlike those jungle creatures, however, the Beast has access to your thoughts, and will use the idea that "then" is different from "now" to try and undermine your confidence. Recall that undermining confidence to abstain is one of the prime functions of its Addictive Voice.
The Beast will say "sure, you can say that you'll never drink again NOW, but just wait, I will get you THEN." If we realize that "I will never drink again" is really the same thing as "I will never drink in the present moment," however, then we can meet the Beast on its own turf, and expose its ploy.

This was covered previously. See the following post:See also pages 138-141 in RR: TNC

No separation here, Aleric. Your Beast struggles with the concept of never drinking again, since this goes against its raison d'être. It was born of drink, and lives to drink.

That's the whole idea behind AVRT -- to live comfortably with residual addictive desire by disassociating from it, and by seeing it as an entity other than self. Who is the stumbling block really for? For you, or your Beast?

The problem, to the extent that it exists, is in the lack of separation, which is what AVRT is about. See "Stealthy Beast Strategies and How to Combat Them" on pages 180-181 of RR: TNC.

The Big Plan alone is technically sufficient for solving the drink problem. One could easily say "I want to drink, but I never will" for example, and indeed, many do recover this way, but it isn't AVRT.

The answer lies in the definition of the Addictive Voice itself, which, once again, is the 'bark' of the Beast. The bark is not the dog, and the AV is not the Beast. It is the Beast talking TO you.

AV ≠ Beast

Bark → Dog = AV → Beast

Unlike in some other paradigms, in AVRT, the AV, and not the Beast, is the cause of your addiction. Remember also, that without a Big Plan, there is no AVRT, because the Addictive Voice is also simply any thinking or feeling that contradicts your Big Plan in any way, shape, or form.

Any 'uncertainty' is, by definition, the Addictive Voice of the Beast in your mind's eye, supporting the possibility of some more drinking.

No separation here, Aleric. Who is carried away by 'cravings' and 'obsessive thoughts' about drinking. You, or your Beast? The Beast lives to drink -- IT is 'obsessed' with the next drink, and with time since the last drink. The only schedule it cares about is a drinking schedule.

Part of AVRT is matching the Beast's tactic, and AVRT is therefore patterned after the Addictive Voice itself.

The Big Plan is a chosen irrationality, arrived at largely through intuition. Any further disputation of the Addictive Voice is regarded as negotiation on the terms of surrender. Even to remind oneself of past trauma as a (statistically) likely outcome of further self-intoxication is a disputation.

Remember that the Beast of AVRT is a rational entity, insofar as it is acting to ensure its own survival, and that the I/It split is not between rational and irrational, but between higher/moral reasoning and lower base drives. By resorting to these tactics, the Beast is finally matched.

That's the whole idea, though. Set your confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100%, and recognize all self-doubt as the Addictive Voice itself. It is just the Beast barking at you -- no different than when it says "Drink. Now."

Algorithm

I'll just note for clarity that I am referring to the "playing the tape" or "remembering your last drunk" approach here, in which one tries to recall the downsides of drinking in order to deter oneself from indulging. The Beast isn't interested in drinking for the downsides, however, and in fact, doesn't even take them into account.

The Beast is only interested in the benefits of drinking. Thus, in AVRT, we become just like the Beast, and abstain from the benefits of drinking, not from the downsides. The Beast would not be deterred by the downsides, in any case. It is a rational sociopath which drinks to live, after all.

AlericB

Thanks for your comprehensive answer Algorithm. I agree with all you say, and you really could not have explained it more clearly, but there's still one thing I'd like to discuss. I'm hope I'm not being too annoying btw! I'm hoping that if I'm not clear about something then others may be too so it's worth bringing up. And it's not because I'm seeking a perfect understanding of AVRT - I well see that that would be AV because it would suggest that I might drink again if I don't grasp every single nuance. It's just something in the RR: TNC book that either I don't get or can't agree with.

I'll quote parts of the section entitled "How to Get Out of Your Big Plan" on pages 209-210 to summarise the issue. The italics are in the original.

"I do not know how to cancel a Big Plan because such a counterplan is a plan to drink. I have worked on this puzzle using myself as an experimental subject, but each time I think about developing a plan to reverse my Big Plan, I recognize my own Addictive Voice and cannot proceed. Would it be as simple as just grabbing a drink and tossing it down? Even if I could get myself to do that, I doubt I could do it again, and the thought of drinking again is repugnant. If you have made a Big Plan, try getting out of it, and discover the meaning of the word never."

This says to me that once you have made a Big Plan you are somehow reprogrammed to never be able to drink again even if, for whatever reason, you may choose to. It goes to the heart of what I have been trying to say about freedom and the word "never". Surely AVRT is contingent on actually putting it into practice and we will always have the freedom to abandon the practice, or plan, if we so wish? This is the only reservation I have about the technique as described in the book but it's a big one to me because it seems to invalidate the whole concept of what a technique is.

Wholesome

I will jump in and try to answer this question. He talks about free will in the beginning of the book. We do have the free will to self intoxicate ourselves, and he says if that's what you want then go for it! So now let's assume that you don't want to drink anymore. The BP is a self inflicted removal of that choice. I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind. No matter what. It is taking away that freedom to self intoxicate that you freely impose on yourself. And yes it is binding and for life. You no longer are free to get wasted. I guess there is nothing stopping you from breaking that solemn oath, but if you did it would mean you never really meant it. Your word to yourself would be worth mud and you would be nothing more than a slave to your addiction. A Beast only interested in one thing and not a human being with integrity and self control.

AlericB

I totally agree with that zenchaser. My concern was purely that it's important to retain the concept of freedom in any recovery model and the way that you put it preserves this.

Wholesome

Yeah, we freely make the decision to deny ourselves the freedom to drink.

Greenwood618

If you want to preserve the freedom to drink, why worry about any "recovery model?"

And AVRT is not a "recovery model." It is merely the collected wisdom of the billions of people who have quit on their own.

Your quibbles and sophistry are pure AV. What difference does it make if you don't like how the book is written or the how the decision-making behind the BP is explained?

The important thing is that your Beast doesn't like it, and believe me, your AV-dripping objections make it pretty obvious that is the case.

AlericB

Well, I need to understand something before I have confidence in it. Dismissing any criticism of a book as AV doesn't work for me I'm afraid.

Why do you say AVRT is not a recovery model?It is an expression of the common wisdom of self-recovery into a paradigm or model no?

Trimpey does not claim to have invented the technique, in fact he goes to pains to say it did not, and this lore is a subject I am interested in and have every right to discuss.

AlericB

That sums up and answers my dilemma nicely zenchaser, thanks.

Greenwood618

AVRT works regardless if you have confidence in it or not.

Your understanding of it is flawed. It is not a model or paradigm. Those words, in fact, are recovery-industry words.

AVRT is a tool. Like a screwdriver. It is used in the customary fashion and the job is done.

No one writes dissertations on the understanding of a screwdriver. I suppose you would say it is not a tool, but rather a framework or paradigm for fastener-loosening and tightening exigencies.

Similarly, AVRT is not academic or intellectual in nature, theory, or original research. It is not philosophy and doesn't require or merit philosophical debate.

It is empirical - study what goes in and what comes out. In this case, quite literally, when no alcohol goes in, no drunkeness comes out.

Many people have attempted to apply some sort of critical scythe to AVRT, but it doesn't work. Such attempts are AV.

In any case, AVRT is simply a tool, designed to be used or discarded, and frankly, no one particularly cares what you, I or anyone else does, including employing AVRT, drinking or hanging out in church basements.

But this overweening analysis is silly. You are better off debating hardware.

Algorithm

Trimpey is simply applying the machinery of AVRT to his plan to renege on his Big Plan, and correctly identifying it as Addictive Voice, as the Beast talking to him. It is Trimpey's Beast that wants him to renege on the Big Plan, and AVRT allows him to recognize that, so he is unable to proceed.

Yes, AVRT is a tool, and it must be put to use. Trimpey says as much in RR: The New Cure, on page 84.

The freedom to abandon the Big Plan, to violate a previous covenant, certainly exists, in that one is capable of physically swallowing alcohol, but that does not mean that such an idea is not the Addictive Voice itself. It is the Beast barking, and AVRT will necessarily identify it as such.

The Beast is an instinctive, counterfit survival drive arising from the limbic system. The Beast is a drive to drink/use as if life depended on it, accompanied by justifications (the AV) drawn from the personality of its host. The Beast has no identity of its own, but takes on any appearance it must. This includes a deity which grants conditional reprieves from addiction, since the Beast can then retain full control of the drinking schedule, and it talks in our heads with a commanding, authoritative voice, much like the G-d of the Bible does.

The birth of the Beast causes a comprehensive inversion of one's orientation in life, grounded in the denial of the moral dimension of intoxication -- Original Denial. "Anything that feels that good can’t be wrong, or even bad at all” says the Beast, and other truths are inverted to fit the Beast's new addictive mandate, and the cardinal rule of addiction. "Never say never", says the Beast. The result is a knawing sense that further self-intoxication is necessary, for reasons that, without the Structural Model, are not intuitively apparent.

Much like a sexual awakening at the onset of puberty, the birth of the Beast gives rise to a comprehensive style of thinking (the AV) centered around the addictive mandate, which is subjectively experienced as the self (as "me"). At times of crisis induced by addiction, the original self, also wanting to surive, may decide to forsake the addictive mandate. In addiction, there are two survival mentalities competing with each other ("I" and "IT"), but unrecognized as such, the Beast eventually reorganizes itself, and the forlorn addict experiences a reversal of intent. This cycle can go on for years, until the definitive awakening.

When you doubt AVRT, you are only doubting yourself. AVRT is a depiction of your own free will, essentially the addict's missing moral conscience as it applies to the use of alcohol and other drugs. AVRT corrects the central moral inversion that sustains addiction, which we call Original Denial, by willfully violating the Beast's cardinal rule of addiction with the Big Plan, and by identifying the Addictive Voice as an immoral proposition, which is attributed to an ego-alien entity other than self.

As has already been noted, the Big Plan is a freely chosen decision to remove the Option of ever choosing to drink/use again, by adopting a new, abstinent mandate. Any contradiction of that new, self-imposed mandate is Addictive Voice -- the Beast barking away.

AlericB

This is great teaching. I'll just quote the above because that was the issue which had been troubling me.

I think it's true to say that often things fail to connect until certain intellectual ideas hit home. For me, this idea is the one you've expressed above and which zenchaser also gave in her last post.

So, sorted now or will be once I find that screwdriver I've been looking for.

Thanks again.

GerandTwine

I don't look at that paragraph from Algorithm as teaching. I look at it as testing to see how the learning has progressed by the responses to it. It is a test to see if YOU believe that the freedom to violate the Big Plan truly exists (which, obviously, it DOES NOT); or, only "that one is capable of physically swallowing alcohol" but that it will never happen, and with a Big Plan CANNOT happen, no matter what. The latter is what Algorithm is saying, and the AV tries to get us to believe the former is what is true. I classify Algo's paragraph as a shifting exercise. "Ah, IT wants me to believe the former, I know it is the latter. Yes, I can feel and hear IT even now. IT really really wants me to believe that I MUST still have the freedom to drink some more."

Guess what, like those who utilize AVRT, the Beast also knows you cannot violate your Big Plan. Yes, the Beast KNOWS what NEVER means, but its Addictive Voice will try to get YOU to believe otherwise; that you have the freedom to violate your Big Plan to the point that you will violate it. That is ITs mission - and anything goes to get it done. The Beast knows the truth about what the Big Plan really is and that it cannot control your muscles, but the Beast and its AV have many, many advocates all around us at all levels of our relationships with others in society.

In your case, your Addicctive Voice is championing the freedom to choose to drink some more alcohol as a great indicator of our unique humanness. But it is just another pettifoggerous ploy.

I cannot imagine how anyone who has determined that it is morally reprehensible to ever take another drink of alcohol would be troubled with not having the freedom to drink some more. It just doesn't make sense. The Big Plan is a complete, permanent, ironclad, focused, and noninvasive solution.

AlericB

Well, it makes sense to me.

I would never join an alt-right group for example but it is important to me to live in a country where I have the political freedom to do so if I wish. To me this issue means just that and no more.

I accept that any desire for me to drink again is the AV but my wish to have the freedom to choose is me. To be honest, if I didn't feel I had the freedom to abandon my Big Plan if I wanted to, and let me say again I will not abandon the plan then I would feel brain-washed. You may not feel this, and perhaps no one else would, but I would and so that is my view.

I think it is best to agree to disagree on this one.

Wholesome

Let's face it, we are all adults here and are free to do as we like. If I wanted to inject Drano in my vein, I'd be free to do it. The BP is us deciding to live a better life, free of the tyrant who lives in our heads, it is the opportunity to live an authentic freedom. I would say that abandoning the BP is the opposite of freedom and the illusion that it would be otherwise is 100% AV.

AlericB

I agree completely with that zenchaser.

Fusion

Hi Aleric, I understand the point you're making. My take on it is, by making my BP, I secured the permanent application of my free-will, not to drink.

Like you, I don't intend to put it to the test and discover whether GerandTwine's point is true, (that I'd be unable to abandon the BP and drink, because that decision would be AV.).

When my BP was made I became a non-drinker. I did NOT make that decision without a huge maelstrom of angst and repeated deliberations. The Beast continued to project a return to occasional drinking, of fine wine/dining, crystal waters sailing/chilled wine........despite the fact those days were long gone and I was heading down the addiction spiral. Even as I made my BP, the Beast was still arguing that one day, I could become a 'normal' drinker.

I've read enough on addiction over the years and here on SR, to know that, once a line is crossed, despite a lenghty abstinence, the odds are that the alcohol consumption will rapidly ramp up to the original (unwanted) amount. I am resolute in my (final) choice and decision never to drink. The BP is a decision rooted in freedom, not loss of liberty; so to break my BP, I'd re-enslave myself by loss of freedom.

There are myriad actions I won't carry out, in essence, unwritten BPs. Such as, I'll never kick, maim or starve my dogs or cats. I hold my BP on the same moral plane. Why would I wish to overturn my BP on animal welfare, any more than I'd wish to overturn my BP on my own and families welfare? Of course I have the freedom to change my mind, I'm not brainwashed: I just won't envision it, as it would contravene my BP. My Beast can envision it though, poor thing.

AlericB

Hi Tatsy,

Good to see you again

I agree and, as we know, AVRT is a distillation of the common wisdom of the self-recovered, the person on the street. I can't imagine many people having anything like the esoteric thoughts above. Most people would know as a matter of common sense that they can always change their mind if they want to but won't because they enjoy their new, better life too much.

dwtbd

I'd go a step a further and say that not only is it a distillation of the "wisdom of the 'self-recovered' ", but the recognition of the fact of self-recovery.
Notwithstanding any rituals, sloganeering, psycho-self healing, quitting is what happens and only happens when YOU decide to Quit.

Metaphysicians have been exploring the mechanics of desire, especially eastern thinkers, for eons. Addiction happens to be a very nasty 'strain', but the age old common human sense of avoiding causes of deleterious effects can be brought to bear even if the cause is from 'within'.

A renaissance of pre 1930 thought and its cultural indoctrination.

Fusion

Thank you, Aleric.

Yes, but it's important when a Big Plan is made, that no expectations of a new, better life are attached. Outside the BP I nurtured the hope that when I stopped drinking, a natural consequence would be physical, material and self-improvements. With hard work. these expectations have exceeded my hopes and continue to unfold - as a consequence of stopping drinking I can apply myself as a functioning non-drinker: instead of the previous inept, self-sabotaging, ,self-neglecting drinker.

When I made my Big Plan "I will never drink again and I will never change my mind" the ONLY expectation I placed on myself, was an inaction: not drinking. Consequently, when I succeeded in that aim, my self-esteem and confidence resurrected and as it flourished, I was able to apply this self-empowerment to nurturing myself and my life.