AlericB

I love the idea of passive recognition, of letting the Beast make the first move and then responding to that rather than anxiously monitoring myself for signs of Beast activity. I love chess too so this may help me actually enjoy AVRT! Theoretically, black can always play the perfect game by always making the move that follows the shortest path to either a win or draw (depending on white's response), so no reason why we can't be perfect in AVRT and always deprive the Beast of a win!

I was trying to explain AVRT yesterday to a friend. He said that he couldn't understand how I was able to say that I would never drink again. When I tried to explain it to him I found I didn't really know either! The only answer I could give was that at least I can say that I'm not able to ever drink again without knowing that I'd be giving into my AV and doing something that would be morally wrong for me. Thinking about it now though, I think a better answer would have been that my Big Plan removes the option of choice off the table so that I don't have to be continually making choices about whether to drink or not and that, as longer as I honour my BP, I will never drink again.

GerandTwine

Everything in red is your Addictive Voice (and the first red sentence is your friends' acquiescence to a mythology within society driven by the Addictive Voice).

My first taken aback response to such a question would be "Your kidding, right? Why on earth do you think you are incompetent to make such a pledge if you wanted to?"

GerandTwine

"...here are some proposed ground rules, which can be amended as needed...
This is a place to discuss AVRT, and nothing else.
This is not a place to discuss any other recovery programs.
This thread is not a place to post about any issues you may have with your wife, husband, in-laws, family, employer, dog, cat, etc. Please use other threads for that."

I'm posting this because there has been some recent banter about vacations etc. that has nothing to do with AVRT.

Thanks,

GT

AlericB

Well, for myself, I will always have the freedom to give up on my Big Plan and the suggestion that I can't would be AV to me: if I told myself I am not free to tear up my BP then I am quite likely to do just that simply to prove to myself that I am free. This is not a philosophical point - the sense of freedom goes to the heart of who we are. It is more important even than life itself.

I assign 100% confidence to myself that I will keep my Big Plan but I do not view this as being incompatible with my sense of remaining free. I'm not saying that this is correct AVRT btw - it is just a statement of where I am with it now and it's made for discussion only!

AlericB

To add to what I've just said in my post above, while I think I'm free to give up my Big Plan, I do not consider myself morally free to do so, any more than I am free to kick a homeless person on the street. My BP is a moral promise because it means that I will be the best person I can be for myself and others. Perhaps it's this thought above all which allows me to guarantee that I will always keep my BP.

fini

how does being " free" to " give up" your BP jive with the BP second sentence?

do you see it like : i am free to change my mind, but i never will, so, even though i'm free to, the option is removed, but it isn't really, and i need to know i have it, so that i can freely choose it, but after i've chosen not to ever change my mind, then somehow....do you see the contradictions?

GerandTwine

I have an understanding of freedom of the human brain that is diametrically opposite of what you are suggesting above. My ability to make a plan that includes NEVER drinking/drugging EVER AGAIN indicates a freedom that actually goes beyond the freedom you describe, as I understand freedom. I have the freedom to actually confront the BEAST outside of your realm of freedom of choice and "think/behave" as IT does with an absolute permanent removal of choice which is what the Big Plan MUST be.

Choosing to remove my freedom of choice over something as minutely specific as drinking/drugging impacted my freedom of choice in other areas NOT AT ALL. In fact doing so ended up INCREASING the major and minor choices in life I was free to make manyfold.

I could not have said it better than Algorithm did earlier today:

Our ability to win against the Beast this way has always been within our reach.

AlericB

No, I see it like I said it. I am free to kick a homeless man in the street but I am not morally free to do so. No contradictions.

AlericB

And this actually expands my freedom right? I would agree with that, thanks. The value of discussion!

GerandTwine

Congratulations! You are NOW free to make a Big Plan, following which you will never again be free to make a choice about drinking some more. Anyone can do this because ingesting alcohol/drugs is so clearly defined and in-your-face obvious.

Algorithm

The Addictive Voice is essentially an immoral proposition, but the key thing to remember is that the Big Plan effectively removes the Option of choosing to drink/use, one way or the other. The Big Plan is a decision never to choose again, so to speak. A binding covenant imposed on oneself by oneself.

The Big Plan creates a loss of choice, as GerandTwine pointed out in his post, and AVRT is not a 'choosing not to drink today' method of recovery. With the Big Plan in place, you no longer have a choice in the matter. Not today, and not on any other day, either.

AVRT identifies the Beast as a rational entity, and all thoughts or desires of drinking/using, or of ever being unable to abstain, are recognized as AV and attributed to the Beast. This is the Law of Attribution. Your concerns in a previous post about not being able to use AVRT to recognize AV at some point in the future obviously fit the definition of the Addictive Voice. It was the Beast talking to you.

There have been some previous discussions about whether or not the Beast is a real entity, and whether one can achieve separation, but we actually do this all the time when reading. For example, as I read your posts, AlericB, I am hearing my own 'voice' as I read, much as when I hear the AV, but I automatically and effortlessly attribute that voice to you. The same goes with GerandTwine's posts, or any other posts, for that matter.

AVRT is similarly effortless. Recognize, and then attribute. Repeat as necessary whenever the Beast pipes up. It is as easy as reading a book.

Freedom from the Beast and its addictive mandate, its 'portable prison' that follows you around, even between using episodes. Yes, indeed.

Algorithm

No one 'officially' defeats their addiction in the western world. According to popular wisdom, anyone who quits their addiction could not have had 'the problem' in the first place, and anyone who was actually addicted, couldn't possibly quit for good, much less on their own. Since addicted people are everywhere, and since people in recovery from addiction have created a multitude of organizations that cater to others in recovery, the AV has permeated our culture.

The uncertainty principle, and the cardinal rule of addiction -- 'never say never' -- have become common knowledge.

AlericB

Thank you for your beautifully written descriptions and explanations of AVRT Gerald Twine and Algorithm (and everyone who knows me). It's very much appreciated.

The reading voice analogy of the addictive voice will stay with me I think

AlericB

It also seems like common sense. How can you say now that you will never drink/use then? And how can you talk about this without appearing to be veering off into the mystical?

As I understand it, AVRT is an expression in a brief educational format of how people have managed to quit for good by themselves. I think a major difficulty is that people don't really know how they did it. For example, I quit smoking several years ago and I distinctly remember the moment where I just knew that I had to quit completely, that I had to give up smoking once and for all and that I could never even have one ever again. And this made the while thing relatively easy. All I had to do was get through the physical withdrawal, there was no continuing inner debate to try I resolve. However I am unable to explain where this thought and feeling of certainty came from, much less how to reproduce it.

I feel I'm letting down my recent congratulations from GT now and being the eternal student but I must still be honest and and say that I still struggle with the concept of never when applied to drinking. It does not come naturally like it did with smoking and I would not be surprised if this was not the number one stumbling block for people who are introduced to AVRT. Would not we all remove the Option of drinking/using again from the table if only we know how to do it?

So I wondered if we can stay on this topic a bit longer and and maybe say how we arrived at the 'certainty principle' ourselves. It would certainly help me and perhaps others to feel able to make an informed choice about whether and how to accept the solution.

Wholesome

I was discussing AVRT with a friend this past weekend and she asked me that same question, how can I know that I won't drink again in the future? I told her that when the future comes it will be right now and I have 100% confidence that I can always not drink right now.

As far as certainty goes, I think one has to be really ready, some people just aren't. For me, I spent a long time knowing that one day I would quit but I had to get to a point where I was really truly done with it. I think there are times in peoples lives where it's easier or where they have an epiphany or an event where they come to a crossroads and they are able to make that decision. I read about people on here who had quit for years and then go back to it and it can take years to get to that point again where they are ready to draw that line in the sand again and say enough. I know for myself that this is my final quit. I've lumped drinking in with other immoral things that I would never do like beat a homeless person, like you mentioned Aleric, or kick my dog, or prostitute myself.

I have to say that having removed the choice to drink has given me a freedom that is worth more to me then I could have imagined back when I was drinking. I had no idea how much I would gain by giving up that one thing. I just wish I'd done it sooner, I look back on those wasted years and I feel bad for how I didn't meet my children's needs and how I underachieved and lived down to my addiction. I think a lot about how to redeem myself for doing that........

dwtbd

I think the certainty on the 'certainty principle' is achieved when separation, as a concept, is implemented.
AV is any doubt in the ability to remain abstinent or thoughts, feelings and images of future drinking. The AV is the human voice 'in your head' of the Beast expressing Its relentless and single focus of desire for booze.
A BP is the rational You declaring the irrational proposition to the AV that never is a rational and operable term. 'Never' is AV irrational , stumbling on the term is not You conceding that never again pouring booze down your throats is a metaphysical impossibility, it is simple doubt creeping into Your thinking. That doubt is pure AV, recognize it and separate from It.
As others have said , the ease of accepting the metaphysical possibility of never robbing a bank or kicking puppies is accomplished, presumably because, lol, that a drive for such activities had never formed and went 'rogue'.
The birth of the Beast and its continued existence , the rogue survival drive that equates booze consumption with life, once recognized and separated and or compartmentalized can then be dismissed.
'Wanting' to drink now or conceiving of a future state of 'wanting' to drink is AV , not You nor is it a refutation of a BP.
Feel free to take the wholly irrational stance that You are 100% certain that You will never , ever again put booze in your mouth ever again, ever. The part of your thinking that sees that statement as supercilious is AV, separate that part out , name it and dismiss it.

AlericB

zenchaser,

The idea that it will always be 'now' is very encouraging, thanks. We may need to bring ourselves back to the present moment at times, such as when we are carried away by cravings or obsessive thoughts about drinking. But when we are back in the 'now', just like when we stay in possession of the personal pronoun 'I' as AVRT teaches, we get our proper perspective back and can make more informed choices.

I'm sure your children are full of admiration at what you have achieved and are just glad you're able to be fully present with them, and more so as they get older.

dU
It's interesting that you introduce the word 'irrational' into the discussion. Perhaps there is a need to acknowledge that a Big Plan is ultimately irrational in its use of the word 'never' and that this is necessary for it to be able to counter the equally intransigent 'always' of the Beast.

What I couldn't see was how we can be certain that we will never drink again. I know that we can certainly say this provided we know that we will always keep our Big Plan but this seems to be just a way of shifting the problem one step back to the same question really of how can we be certain that we will always stick to the BP? Perhaps the only way to interrupt this regression is with the irrational, kick-ass stand you describe.

AlericB

Sorry dwtbd, your name came out as 'dU' for some reason just now. Doh!

dwtbd

AlericB
Do you 'see' the Beast as a desire for alcohol, or the desire for alcohol?

You seem to be saying that you can see AVRT's view that the Beast is a desire for alcohol and that the AV is the voice of the Beast suggesting and trying to convince one to indulge that desire. And that using the technique of AV recognition one can successfully thwart the Beast's intentions and persevere in the 'now' whenever that now happens to be, yeah?
But what or how can one thwart a desire when it 'comes' from ourselves , e.g. "I get how to deny the Beast urges, I just don't know what to do if/when I'M the one who wants a drink".
If this is close to what you are thinking, can you also see how pivotal the concept of separation is?
All desire for alcohol is recognized as the Beast , any thoughts of future drinking or doubt in the ability to remain permanently abstinent is AV.
The idea that it is nearly impossible for a human to go through life without ingesting alcohol comes only from one's own AV and or the cultural or institutional AV and your Beast's response to it.

Being deprived of ever again feeling the buzz, feeling the warm relaxation ,stress relieving euphoria of the first couple is the AV telling You what you will miss and that missing will be incalculably cruel to inflict upon yourself. Do you believe that?
I did for a long time. Now I assign all the deprivation to the Beast and revel in Its loss.
That euphoria was never worth it in the past, no matter how I tried to justify it, and never would be in the future. Being a drunk sucks, I never want to be a drunk again, not ever drinking again is the smallest and easiest 'price' to pay to ensure for myself that I will never be a drunk again.
I don't desire alcohol, IT always will. I won't ever drink again I'm more than fine with that , It hates that , too bad for IT.

AlericB

Hi dwtbd,

I do see the Beast is the desire for alcohol, not just a desire, and therefore the need for s complete I/IT split. And I accept that the word 'never' is the key.part of the Big Plan and is needed to be set against the eternal, unchanging desire of the Beast, and that anything less is a plan for future drinking.

The only problem I was having was with the idea that a Big Plan somehow makes it impossible for you ever to drink again, that you can't undo or get out of it even if you try. What I think now after all the responses I got from everyone is that you don't necessarily have to believe this in order to achieve complete confidence in your abstinence - you can instead arbitrarily and, as you say, irrationally assign yourself 100% confidence that you will never drink again. I can live with this anyway!