awuh1

silentrun

Great links on this thread! About a year ago I realized I was highly trained in circular reasoning by my cult upbringing. I can really use the course on critical thinking.

samseb5351

There are many ways to learn these methods, some less formal than others. A good starting point (at least for me) was podcasts.
Hearing people discussing skepticism, science and critical thinking really helped me. You could start with Podcasts like
Point of Inquiry and Skeptics Guide to the Universe.
There are lots of books on the subject, and most are available in Audiobook format, which is my preference.
For me personally most critical thinking skills initially arose from understanding ways humans think and a t in the world.
Books that discuss in easy to understand dialogue things like Cognitive Dissonance,
One of my Favs is "mistakes were made: but not by me" by Carol Tavris
Or The Believing brain and why people believe weird things by Michael Shermer

awuh1

I like the allegory of Plato's cave. It seems most apt here. (It's similar to Hawks example above.)

In the allegory, Plato likens people to a prisoner who has forever been chained in a cave and is unable to turn his/her head. All they have ever known are shadows on the wall in front of them, because all they can see is this one wall of the cave. Behind them burns a dim fire. Between the fire the prisoner are puppeteers. The puppeteers hold up puppets that cast shadows on the wall of the cave in front of the prisoner, but the prisoner is unable to see these puppets, which are the real objects behind him/her. What the prisoner sees are only the shadows cast by objects, which cannot be seen.

Under these circumstances a prisoner might believe that the shadows themselves are the real thing. That the shadows are beings which also inhabit the cave.

Its a bit like what the author in your link has to say about paradigms samseb. He states, "Thus, one of the causes of our differing perceptions of truth is that we all start from our own set of assumptions. This is precisely the reason why the serious seeker of truth must learn to question everything and be willing to give up cherished notions, even if it means suffering discomfort." OK, So far so good.

It's the next sentence where I believe he is mistaken. He states, "This requires rejection of custom and tradition as a basis of fact, and, in its place, acceptance of logic and reason." Sounds good on the surface, but this contradicts what he just got done saying above. He said, "the serious seeker of truth must learn to question everything, and be willing to give up cherished notions." If you worship at the alter of logic and reason, and use these as your only tools, you are going to miss out on certain truths. There are things that are beyond comprehension by mere rationality.

These include things like mystical experiences, NDE's, and higher forms of awareness which can be achieved through meditation. Unfortunately most folks have no experience with any of these. So consider a more everyday example. Consider being "in love". The serious seeker of truth will have some difficulty understanding a friend who has just fallen in love, unless, they have been there themselves. Logic and reason alone fail as adequate tools. One must relate to their own personal experience of being "in love" in order to have any sort of meaningful dialogue about it with that friend.

Hey guys you totally need to come outside and see this!

Hawks

There's no meaning behind.

It is what it is.

schnappi99

One of the things that attracted me to the 12-Step work was the lack of extraordinary claims. My religion of choice is Buddhism which has many.. so I was very attracted by the lack.

Lots of anectodal evidence in various forums, stories of change from various people in the meetings suggested to me that things <could> change for the better if I did the things they did. Not that they magically would but if they have for many then it might be a good bet. No assertions were made about other approaches by the 12 step material or by the speakers- the only claim made was this one had worked for them.

I was invited to try the steps for myself and see if it might work for me. I was not required to believe in any doctrine or even the program itself BUT the #1 rule was I could not consider myself in control of my life. I didn't have much trouble with that, clearly I could not will myself happy nor will my wife to do what I wanted so just how much power did I have? Influence some ways, some times sure, but nothing like control.

I didn't have anything to lose, I was already miserable- I didn't have to sign up for anything, commit to anything, use my full name or even give my phone #, so it was unlikely to me that I'd be more miserable for the attempt. So alanon seemed an eminently pragmatic and low BS sort of program; I decide for myself about its efficacy by making myself the experiment for as long as I chose. I'd spent several years heading into an ever darker, angry and frustrated frame of mind, the trajectory was clear, so if alanon was going to help the results should be observable.

So the program asks for no investment on my part of money or belief, only offers the collective experience of many and the set of steps they used. Vocabulary aside, its more secular and non-philosophical than any religion or self-help system I've come across.

And thats all fine as far as it goes- another personal anecdote and no more measurable than the others. But the OP referred to "sustainable truth" wrt recovery and I confess I don't know what that is. Might be some find that they complete their recovery and move on, having acquired an understanding of some truth about themselves which is sufficient to prevent another descent into addiction or obsession, and so they are free of it. Given my experience with meditation and meetings I think at this time I have to keep earning my recovery day to day, if I stop or lose focus then the darkness creeps back in.

In a way the anecdotal evidence approach seems pretty good- we report what we see & experience, as honestly and as unembellished as we can. And of course, imperfectly in every respect. Yet by many people doing it many times, consistent features of addiction and recovery are outlined. Perhaps we're barely out the baby steps and the grand unified theory of addiction and recovery hasn't been written.

freshstart57

If we don't think critically, we are at risk of falling into traps of sloppy thinking through unthinking acceptance of logical fallacies, being manipulated through inability to analyse what is being said, and drawing conclusions which simply are not supported. In other words, through the use of reason, any reasonable person would make a different decision. To do something else, is by definition, unreasonable.

I don't think that questioning everything means discarding everything without a rational explanation, such as emotional responses, near death experiences, and so on. On the contrary, questioning everything, and in particular, coming to an understanding of why we believe what we believe is essential if we wish to fully appreciate those things that have no rational explanation. Joy and wonder are simply to be treasured and shared.

bigsombrero

I sought sustainable truth for quite some time in early recovery - like Mecanix said, sometimes that led me down a rabbit hole caused more mental anguish than I needed. That said, I think my bitterness was warranted. When I heard a speaker tell me in my treatment center that "All you have to do is open up to God", I was so angry and heartbroken. I had trudged all these miles, gotten this far...only to hear someone preach this drivel. It was so disappointing and frustrating.

Luckily, I found many others in recovery who were on my same wavelength. Those who read, ask questions, look at scientific studies, and then ask more questions. At first, I wasn't sure they existed because the other 75% are so visible and loud. But we're here. And frankly, that's all I needed to feel like my recovery had a chance. Ironically, it wasn't the science or the skepticism that helped me get these 2.5 years under my belt. It was, in fact, feeling that I was a part of a group. Ain't that a kicker?

I think that's what everyone - regardless of gender, race, faith, etc - is really looking for in recovery. When you can find others who have similar beliefs as yourself, and you see them succeeding, you are naturally going to gravitate to the methods those people are using. It's simple tribal mentality. It makes us feel better. No matter how many of us consider ourselves "loners", there's a biological part of us that needs to be a part of a team.

I think that's why you see so many different recovery methods out there. Those raised with religious beliefs and who go to church tend to gravitate to religious recovery methods, and they can point to many who have succeeded to confirm that their choice is the correct one. Same for atheists. Same for dog-lovers. Heck, bikers have their own forum here.

I think that fitting into a group of some kind in early recovery is so key, that there's almost some kind of "imprinting" that takes place. We often are just as vulnerable as naked babies before entering recovery, and I'm guessing there's some kind of latching-on phenomenon that takes place and that's why everyone is so damn sure that it's their method that works.

silentrun

Woohoo I can listen instead of read! I noticed the critical thinking course was on video--- bonus.
I love Shermer. I was having some serious patternicty going on a while back and some of his videos helped me to figure put what was going on. It is happening again and it's telling me I am still missing something.
Luckily I am not a truth seeker so I should get off pretty lightly here. I like what he said about principles. Actions have consequences. I would like my actions to line up more with my desired outcomes. If I can just get that I'm good. I don't care about the rest.
I should have spent more time on this side of the forum.

CelticZebra

So interesting & great links...
Especially the poster, I'm gonna print that one out!
I agree that it is what it is
I must practice more mindfulness
Thanks for this thread, very useful

Driving my wagon of hope through beautiful views on my road to myself