Not advocating, proselytizing, or any of those other things...
Marchia in Aeternum
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Georgia
Posts: 11,094
I tried to tie this into recovery but there seems to be resistance.
"If I'm wrong about God, am I wrong about my approach to recovery?"
Can't seem to get anyone to talk about recovery as I intended. I must be very bad at leading a discussion.
It's the same question as: "If I'm wrong about Firestone tires, am I wrong about driving safety?"
If I'm wrong about this, which I admit to be a possibility, am I wrong about my approach to recovery?
"If I'm wrong about God, am I wrong about my approach to recovery?"
Can't seem to get anyone to talk about recovery as I intended. I must be very bad at leading a discussion.
It's the same question as: "If I'm wrong about Firestone tires, am I wrong about driving safety?"
If I'm wrong about this, which I admit to be a possibility, am I wrong about my approach to recovery?
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
The placebo effect is pretty strong though. So if it "works" is it still fundamentally wrong? My guess is no.
What works, works. What works is then "right" for whoever it works for. At least, for utilitarian purposes. The end would justify the means.
What works, works. What works is then "right" for whoever it works for. At least, for utilitarian purposes. The end would justify the means.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
The real question is how long must one run a multicolored lava lamp before it produces the exact same three dimensional pattern?
oops - I posted before I read though all...
Trach, look up Pascal's wager. I think this might be where you are. The only approach I took to sobriety was to never drink again.
Also take a look at ZEITGEIST - it's on netflix, interesting parallels between christ and various other gods presented
oops - I posted before I read though all...
Trach, look up Pascal's wager. I think this might be where you are. The only approach I took to sobriety was to never drink again.
Also take a look at ZEITGEIST - it's on netflix, interesting parallels between christ and various other gods presented
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Peaceful Coexistence
While at the Dog Park this afternoon, I read some of the referenced Articles that freshstart57 quotes from above. My own take was the that crisp delineation between Science and Religion was reinforced quite expertly by Rabbi Geoffrey Mitelman. Linked below...
'Using science to prove God's existence confuses two very different ways of thinking. Science progresses as new hypotheses get tested, questioned, refuted, expanded upon, discarded, and revised.
Religion, on the other hand, is a way to make sense of the world. It is an appreciation of awe and mystery, justice and compassion.
In other words, science is a search for truth, while religion is a search for meaning.'
'Sorry, Science Doesn't Make A Case For God. But That's OK' ~ Rabbi Geoffrey Mitelman
Once one accepts that a bearded God has nothing to do with the literal creation of the Universe via Processes that can be explained over time by Science, my view is that it's not possible to be 'wrong' about God. It's 'merely' the ongoing search for meaning; no small quest, to be sure. Further, I think that quest can be very germane to Recovery if such a Construct appeals to the Person tackling Recovery. It does not matter to me if someone mentally fabricates a HP that keeps them on the straight-and-narrow, or if some Drinker thinks their Dog talked to them and convinced them to quit. The Desired End Result - to use a Business Phrase - of sustained Sobriety is what matters. To use a Pal's phrase, I'm in 'violent agreement' with what SoberJennie asserts above. Recovery can't be 'wrong'.
Decades of Int'l Travel helped me accept how some Folks have Values, and believe in Processes, that are very different; right down to the core. A challenge that keeps me continually fascinated is to observe whether Folks can really accept such fundamental differences, or whether they can't, and just patronize. True acceptance of Recovery differences runs through some Threads here. Other Threads simply bleed patronizing attitudes.
Back when I was The Head Guy To Troubleshoot Complex Problems & Save Large Int'l Customer Accounts, I used some old methods. Troubleshooting is sometimes reproducing, and understanding, what a problem is not. This, then, narrows the possibilities to what a complex problem could be.
I think it's great you started this Thread, Trach. Via this Thread delving into what the original question you pose is not, we can perhaps broach the residual 'God aspects' of your question.
I'd like to believe I understood your question. I long ago walked away from the Belly-bumping Model of explaining the Universe via Science or Religion. Decades ago, I cut over to Rabbi Mitelman's Model; one that moves beyond old tensions, and embraces peaceful coexistence. I think it's a sound idea to not try to explain a Spiritual Epiphany via Biochemical Processes. I think it also sound to not explain Dark Matter by Religion.
We own 3 Lava Lamps at various Houses.-)
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ~ Christopher Hitchens.
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'Using science to prove God's existence confuses two very different ways of thinking. Science progresses as new hypotheses get tested, questioned, refuted, expanded upon, discarded, and revised.
Religion, on the other hand, is a way to make sense of the world. It is an appreciation of awe and mystery, justice and compassion.
In other words, science is a search for truth, while religion is a search for meaning.'
'Sorry, Science Doesn't Make A Case For God. But That's OK' ~ Rabbi Geoffrey Mitelman
Once one accepts that a bearded God has nothing to do with the literal creation of the Universe via Processes that can be explained over time by Science, my view is that it's not possible to be 'wrong' about God. It's 'merely' the ongoing search for meaning; no small quest, to be sure. Further, I think that quest can be very germane to Recovery if such a Construct appeals to the Person tackling Recovery. It does not matter to me if someone mentally fabricates a HP that keeps them on the straight-and-narrow, or if some Drinker thinks their Dog talked to them and convinced them to quit. The Desired End Result - to use a Business Phrase - of sustained Sobriety is what matters. To use a Pal's phrase, I'm in 'violent agreement' with what SoberJennie asserts above. Recovery can't be 'wrong'.
Decades of Int'l Travel helped me accept how some Folks have Values, and believe in Processes, that are very different; right down to the core. A challenge that keeps me continually fascinated is to observe whether Folks can really accept such fundamental differences, or whether they can't, and just patronize. True acceptance of Recovery differences runs through some Threads here. Other Threads simply bleed patronizing attitudes.
Back when I was The Head Guy To Troubleshoot Complex Problems & Save Large Int'l Customer Accounts, I used some old methods. Troubleshooting is sometimes reproducing, and understanding, what a problem is not. This, then, narrows the possibilities to what a complex problem could be.
I think it's great you started this Thread, Trach. Via this Thread delving into what the original question you pose is not, we can perhaps broach the residual 'God aspects' of your question.
I'd like to believe I understood your question. I long ago walked away from the Belly-bumping Model of explaining the Universe via Science or Religion. Decades ago, I cut over to Rabbi Mitelman's Model; one that moves beyond old tensions, and embraces peaceful coexistence. I think it's a sound idea to not try to explain a Spiritual Epiphany via Biochemical Processes. I think it also sound to not explain Dark Matter by Religion.
We own 3 Lava Lamps at various Houses.-)
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ~ Christopher Hitchens.
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Marchia in Aeternum
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Georgia
Posts: 11,094
Originally Posted by MesaMan 
I think it's great you started this Thread, Trach. Via this Thread delving into what the original question you pose is not, we can perhaps broach the residual 'God aspects' of your question.
I'd like to believe I understood your question.
I'd like to believe I understood your question.
Thanks but, you didn't. If I ever figure out how to ask the question I may get the answers I'm hoping for. Or I may get the same thing I have now. No answer.
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