Fluffer

I think that Vale worked for Carr's organization (they do quit smoking and drinking seminars in some cities) before he wrote the book, so it's not surprising they used the same theoretical basis. I think Carr was in his 70's when he wrote his control alcohol book, so the examples related to playing golf and Sunday roasts may not resonate with younger readers. There are some shortcomings in the theory of their methods, like the statement that drinking has no objective benefit. Actually, drinking lights up the pleasure centers of the brain, so I can't really agree with that. Also, they do underplay the physical withdrawal that some people may experience. Still, their arguments that people usually grossly overestimate the benefits of drinking and the pain of withdrawal are well taken.

yearlander

I agree with Jack Trimpey that people only drink to feel pleasure. I think any excuse of it being for any other benefit is just that..an excuse.
So that bit, about drinking having no objective benefit in Carrs book, like you, I didn't agree with.
I stopped smoking with Carrs other book. And must admit, because I convinced myself I wouldn't have any withdrawals from nicotine, I didn't.
And I agree with you that he underplayed the physical withdrawals from drink.
Ooops, sorry, I have gone right off the subject. The thread was about Vales book I know, not Carrs stop smoking book!

SoberJimmy

Yes I read it - fantastic book. Alan Carr the "Easyway To Quit Drinking" is similar in scope and is recommended as well!

BobbyBricks

Yeah I liked this book for sure. Another good one is This Naked Mind by Annie Grace. It's similar to Jason Vale's book however it is backed up by scientific research. Very recommended!

petals

Will have to add it to my reading list, thanks Bobby.

SoberHoopsFan

Glad to see this thread is still kicking around. I have been happily sober for over a year, and this book has really been the primary basis for my ability to stay sober.

martina12

I loved This Naked Mind by Annie Grace too. I'm following her podcasts too. Would highly recommend.

jesshonesty

I agree! These books helped me a lot. I think it helps to keep their ideas fresh and reinforced. I especially like how Annie's book points how short the actual pleasure period is-- for me probably like 10 minutes. So compared to how long I drank plus next day feelings both physical and shame, well it helps me turn on the "off switch" much quicker.

Time2Rise

Vale posits that drinking alcohol doesn't really make a person feel good. Of course, that is an absurd and completely false statement. When alcohol is consumed, the brain dumps a whole bunch of happy chemicals into the brain, hence the drinker feels good. This is science and not really even up for debate.

Of course, the "feel good" period is usually only a few hours long and is followed by proportionality more hours of feeling like crap, but the reality is that when a person consumes alcohol, they initially feel good. And of course, the brain remembers the association of feeling good after consuming alcohol, and that is the primary reason why problem drinkers have such a hard time quitting.

Vale makes many other good points regarding illusions around alcohol use and drinking culture, but his argument fails miserably when he suggests that alcohol does not have the inherent benefit of making the drinker feel good almost immediately after alcohol is consumed.

For what it's worth, Allen Carr uses the same faulty argument in his Easyway books on alcohol.

Fluffer

I agree with you that that is the main inaccuracy in Carr's and Vale's argument. Of course, part of their strategy is to brainwash you against wanting to drink. I think the more accurate statement is that there are no objective benefits to drinking, although there is certainly a subjective feeling of pleasure brought on by the chemicals. And chasing that subjective feeling causes a host of objectively real problems for the problem drinker.

jazzfish

It depends on whether you take a long-term or short-term view of it. For me, drinking temporarily made me feel good, but the long-term consequences was to feel increasingly worse. This, of course, increased my desire to enjoy the temporary "feel good" that comes with another drink.

My drinking made me feel worse when I wasn't drinking. Sobriety makes me feel better what I am not drinking. For me, how I feel when NOT drinking is the real benchmark to measure alcohol's effect on me.

JeffreyAK

At the end, I drank to feel normal again, and stave off inevitable withdrawal symptoms that made me feel awful. I really didn't drink for pleasure in a hedonistic sort of way, and here I think a simplistic view like Trimpey's misses the reality for many addicts. And for me this drinking phase went on for years and encompassed almost all of the negative consequences.

Why I drank enough to become an addict in the first place, well that's a different question. I don't think that was pleasure either, unless I consider "relief from unresolved stress and anxiety that I never learned to cope with" to be pleasure.

I don't think there are any simple answers that apply to everyone, and looking universals can be misleading.

Time2Rise

Agee, but Vale argues there is no short term pleasure or relief associated with alcohol use. And that's simply not true or even up for debate. As the science is clear

I don't believe that a discussion on the issue would be beneficial ; to continue would be to ignore educated scientists and researchers and side with a juice enthusiast with no real background in addiction science and research. Bottom line, Vale is simply wrong on this point.

Dropsie

I can only second that everyone should read Annie Grace's the Naked Mind.

All the up to date science on the Vale/Carr perspective and so readable and she is fantastic.

Trust me on this one and read it.

One of my favorite lines from Carr is NQTD -- Never Question the Decision. So true.

graced333

The Naked Mind is very good indeed.

jesshonesty

yes I also thought the book was excellent. She gives some great reinforcements on her Facebook page via answers to questions in a video format.

In terms of whether the alcohol makes me feel good-- I think Annie points out (and this is true for me) it actually lasts about 10 minutes until I am pretty much just on the way to passing out/numb and so no longer "happy" except in the sense I am happy to no longer feel. It is not so black in white in these instances as to what is pleasure and certainly the "relaxation" part is only about 10 minutes as well. It has been helpful for me to remember this if ever the fleeting thought comes up. That way I realize a walk (listening to music/podcast) a bath or Netflix binging would be a better choice to "stop my thinking" and numb out in a better way.

Maybe this is what some people meant by "it stopped working" but I am not sure-- since passing out to me was kinda working. Sick I know but just being honest.

Love to hear others thoughts on this. For the record I liked the Vale book a lot as well as Carr-- but they both we a little "too much" and I questioned their science, so glad This Naked Mind has come out and that Annie Grace continues to utilize scientific studies in her discussions.

SoberHoopsFan

The bolded is the key. Whatever temporary "pleasure" is immediately brought on by the chemicals is illusory in the sense that it will not last, provides no objective benefit, and we have been conditioned to see it as a positive mostly because of what society tells us to feel about the drug. He is certainly correct about the disgusting taste (regardless of the chemicals bringing on a feeling of pleasure), which we all noticed when we took our first sip, but became accustomed to over time. The taste never "changes," only our brain's increasingly dependent relationship to the drug.

petals

must make time to read annies book

Time2Rise

Spirits and most beers aren't pleasant tasting; however, most wines, wine coolers, sweet mixed drinks and many, many flavored alcoholic beverages are pleasant tasting if not delicious.

I drank cheap, sweet wine the first time I become intoxicated and I enjoyed the taste and the pleasurable effects. And I had no real aversion to beer when I first drank it; although, I admit I can't say I found it particularly flavorful.

Suggesting that drinkers don't initially enjoy the taste of many alcohol imbued beverages is another inaccuracy in Vale's argument. However, as I've said before, his ideas do have utility, but unfortunately, some of his claims are specious and disingenuous IMO. Still, I do believe the book is worth reading.

graced333

I always despised the taste of alcohol, so instead of sipping it, I swilled at least a pint of cheap vodka and whatever else I could get my hands on for over 30 years. Oh, and for 27 years of that, I added benzos. So the taste never mattered! Just getting completed smashed did. Now, the very thought of booze makes me shudder. Feeling grateful right now for my awakening to life.