My Secular Recovery
Hears The Voice
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
Originally Posted by samseb5351 
what I am saying is you cant demonstrably show you will never drink again. Unless you have a skill of time travel or telling the future.
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein
Suppose everyone had a box with something in it: we call it a “beetle”. No one can look into anyone else’s box, and everyone says he knows what a beetle is only by looking at his beetle. –Here it would be quite possible for everyone to have something different in his box. One might even imagine such a thing constantly changing. –But suppose the word “beetle” had a use in these people’s language? –If so it would not be used as the name of a thing. The thing in the box has no place in the language-game at all; not even as a something: for the box might even be empty. –No, one can ‘divide through’ by the thing in the box; it cancels out, whatever it is.
That is to say: if we construe the grammar of the expression of sensation on the model of ‘object and designation’ the object drops out of consideration as irrelevant.
That is to say: if we construe the grammar of the expression of sensation on the model of ‘object and designation’ the object drops out of consideration as irrelevant.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
sparky,
yes, i get it about compartmentalizing.
separating the voice out as apart from 'me' was hugely helpful to me at the beginning, and i did do that.
but ultimately i needed to be an integrated whole.
wasn't trying to argue with you or try to convince you. just that there are not only two ways to respond to triggers.
so often, i get caught up in either/or, when another option is both/and.
yes, i get it about compartmentalizing.
separating the voice out as apart from 'me' was hugely helpful to me at the beginning, and i did do that.
but ultimately i needed to be an integrated whole.
wasn't trying to argue with you or try to convince you. just that there are not only two ways to respond to triggers.
so often, i get caught up in either/or, when another option is both/and.
Working-cl*** pseudo tough
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 485
No issues fini,
I love having my ideas challenged, and challenging those of others. But as we've both said in posts, recovery is a very individual process, and therefore we attacked our addiction in different manners.
You view your AV as a part of you that will remain with you always, and co-existence must be sought, or else you lose a part of your complete whole. Makes complete sense.
I view my AV as a part of me that must be destroyed or expunged - there will not ever be any coexistence. Makes sense as well.
Overall, I'm glad we're having the discussion, as at some point, someone may wander into this thread looking for ideas. Yours may resonate with them. Mine may resonate with them. Or neither may, and so they go reading through other threads.
We're all looking to arrive and stay at the same place on the map (Soberville) - there are many routes there, and we all have to pick the one that gets us there.
Glad you responded - this thread was in danger of heading in a different direction (soberlicious and MesaMan, I'm looking at you). LOL.
I love having my ideas challenged, and challenging those of others. But as we've both said in posts, recovery is a very individual process, and therefore we attacked our addiction in different manners.
You view your AV as a part of you that will remain with you always, and co-existence must be sought, or else you lose a part of your complete whole. Makes complete sense.
I view my AV as a part of me that must be destroyed or expunged - there will not ever be any coexistence. Makes sense as well.
Overall, I'm glad we're having the discussion, as at some point, someone may wander into this thread looking for ideas. Yours may resonate with them. Mine may resonate with them. Or neither may, and so they go reading through other threads.
We're all looking to arrive and stay at the same place on the map (Soberville) - there are many routes there, and we all have to pick the one that gets us there.
Glad you responded - this thread was in danger of heading in a different direction (soberlicious and MesaMan, I'm looking at you). LOL.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
"I can imagine if I hit my child for being naughty I have control..."
That, to me, indicates no control what so ever.
I realize that I have no plan. I never made a 'big plan'. I just decided to not drink. Then I came across AVRT. I will never drink again and I will never change my mind sounded pretty good to me. So I adopted it. To come up with a stupid statement that you don't know you will never drink again is being nothing more than attempting to start a controversy. I don't have a beast. If I get the urge to have a beer I remind myself that I can't - made a vow to not drink. I know that drinking altered my life. I never want that possibility again. So I will never change my mind.
Do you have money in the bank? Why? How do you know you are going to wake up tomorrow? Why plant a flower? Why even say wedding vows for that matter? Silly. Silly I tell ya.
That, to me, indicates no control what so ever.
I realize that I have no plan. I never made a 'big plan'. I just decided to not drink. Then I came across AVRT. I will never drink again and I will never change my mind sounded pretty good to me. So I adopted it. To come up with a stupid statement that you don't know you will never drink again is being nothing more than attempting to start a controversy. I don't have a beast. If I get the urge to have a beer I remind myself that I can't - made a vow to not drink. I know that drinking altered my life. I never want that possibility again. So I will never change my mind.
Do you have money in the bank? Why? How do you know you are going to wake up tomorrow? Why plant a flower? Why even say wedding vows for that matter? Silly. Silly I tell ya.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: New England
Posts: 3,805
I'm gong to reread the Big Plan chapter again this weekend. Maybe I missed something. I never made one either. To me it was only a strong decision. A concrete choice. "I'm not drinking."
And I didn't get the hitting of the child choice either...
And I didn't get the hitting of the child choice either...
Working-cl*** pseudo tough
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 485
LBrain, I love the way you distilled it down.
"I will never drink again and I will never change my mind"
However, some of us (again Type A) tend to like to-do lists, structure, and organization. You should see my planning for Disney World. Attack point "A" when the park opens, collect Fastpass "B", launch a sortie at Splash Mountain. All urination breaks must be between 10:30 and 10:35, REGARDLESS of bladder condition. LOL.
Arbor, still not sure about how the "beat child = control" discussion came up. At some point, I believe there was an attempt to equate my mental "beatdown" of my AV with the real-life actions of people who are out of control, and therefore resort to physical violence in an attempt to have control. There was also a statement that by resorting to mental violence against my AV that I was empowering it.
Can't say I agreed with either of these viewpoints. I am just using a mental comic-book style visual in dealing with my alcohol cravings, as to me, this approach is consistent with my personality. A competitive person in business (who does believe in the zero-sum game I may add), this works for me. And possibly I should have not shared this visualization, as lord knows many innocent people have suffered physical abuse at the hands of others, and had their love for the abuser twisted and used back against them ("I wouldn't hit you if you didn't deserve it" "Why do you make me hit you? I don't want to.").
However, I am trying to share my plan, and what seems to be working for me with others for discussion and feedback. As we discussed on Page 1, my plan is only a starting point, and I am always happy to debate it, and hear the viewpoints and successes of others.
And who knows, if it works for me, there may be another reader out there who this plan works for too.
"I will never drink again and I will never change my mind"
However, some of us (again Type A) tend to like to-do lists, structure, and organization. You should see my planning for Disney World. Attack point "A" when the park opens, collect Fastpass "B", launch a sortie at Splash Mountain. All urination breaks must be between 10:30 and 10:35, REGARDLESS of bladder condition. LOL.
Arbor, still not sure about how the "beat child = control" discussion came up. At some point, I believe there was an attempt to equate my mental "beatdown" of my AV with the real-life actions of people who are out of control, and therefore resort to physical violence in an attempt to have control. There was also a statement that by resorting to mental violence against my AV that I was empowering it.
Can't say I agreed with either of these viewpoints. I am just using a mental comic-book style visual in dealing with my alcohol cravings, as to me, this approach is consistent with my personality. A competitive person in business (who does believe in the zero-sum game I may add), this works for me. And possibly I should have not shared this visualization, as lord knows many innocent people have suffered physical abuse at the hands of others, and had their love for the abuser twisted and used back against them ("I wouldn't hit you if you didn't deserve it" "Why do you make me hit you? I don't want to.").
However, I am trying to share my plan, and what seems to be working for me with others for discussion and feedback. As we discussed on Page 1, my plan is only a starting point, and I am always happy to debate it, and hear the viewpoints and successes of others.
And who knows, if it works for me, there may be another reader out there who this plan works for too.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
What Brain and Arbor describe is really the essence of what Trimpey coined as the Big Plan. He based his techniques on strategies the self recovered used. So it makes sense that people read AVRT and say "oh... that's how I did it." It's been going on for hundreds of years, people quitting in this manner. It's only in more recent times that popular thought tells people that quitting this way is not possible. That's it's too simple. That's hogwash. People have been ending their suffering with addictions in similar fashion for eons.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
Sparky, I am the typical - no prototypical - class A person. I am also very much based on logic. Yeah, I know if I was logical I wouldn't get drunk...
When I plan trips I know what time we'll be checking in and how long the drive and where and when to get gas. All that. But it was so simple to just not drink again as a solution. Any of the other "character defects" I have can be addressed as needed. In time.
When I plan trips I know what time we'll be checking in and how long the drive and where and when to get gas. All that. But it was so simple to just not drink again as a solution. Any of the other "character defects" I have can be addressed as needed. In time.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
I genuinely do not wont to get into a debate here. Debates ((especially philosophical ones) can be painful distractions and often become about I'm right your wrong crap. If my questions or statements have set that of I apologize. My aim in all these discussions is to explore thinking and ideas, to challenge each other. Not for one moment would I expect anyone to believe what I say. I encourage people to go out and find out for yourself,
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Successive Approximation
Re: the issue of possibly not 'reaching' the set Goal of never Drinking again...
In the wild and wacky World of High Vacuum Engineering, where the Semiconductors we're all using are Manufactured, the concept of 'Successive Approximation' was a baseline. The term was used differently than B.F. Skinner. It meant to design ways to reach at least the halfway point of a successively-achieved Goal.
Let's imagine a Semiconductor Layering Process is 98 % efficient. The next Successive Approximation to the Goal of 100% 'perfection' is 9 9 %. The next is 9 9.5 %. And, so on... There's some weirdness, here, where I can't type 2 - 9s adjacent. They show up as asterisks.
The first Solid State Video Displays were $6k or $8K each because it was so hard to make them 'perfect'. Imagine a Display with 1.5 million Pixels. EVERY ONE has to work, or else the Display is trashed. The Eye would be drawn right to the faulty, unlit Pixel. Today, these Processes are so repeatable, you can stroll into Wally World and buy a Big Screen for $600-. Unthinkable a few years ago...
In Semiconductor Processes, 9 9 % near-perfection was a unspoken given. Process Steps were discussed as being '4 Nines' - **.9999 - or '5 Nines' - **.99999% - in Statistical Analysis of a Process Run. The assumed values were always to the right of the decimal.
My point - and I do have one - is that I see 'never Drinking again' as a sort of Successive Approximation toward the Goal of 'perfect' Sobriety. We used to discuss 'Zero Defects' about every day. In my Life, this Concept is 'Zero Relapses'. Technically, as mentioned above, 'it ain't over til it's over'. However, I'll be GD'ed if I'm ever going to pop back onto SR and discuss a 'slip'. I do not look down whatsoever on those who 'slip'. Guano occurs. Indeed, them sharing their Stories puts some Steel in my Spine to continue to 'straighten up and fly right', as the old WW II Song Lyric goes.
Neither I, nor Semiconductor Processes, are perfect. But, I can achieve the state of Zero Defects on the Goal of uninterrupted Sobriety. That's how I think and live.
In the wild and wacky World of High Vacuum Engineering, where the Semiconductors we're all using are Manufactured, the concept of 'Successive Approximation' was a baseline. The term was used differently than B.F. Skinner. It meant to design ways to reach at least the halfway point of a successively-achieved Goal.
Let's imagine a Semiconductor Layering Process is 98 % efficient. The next Successive Approximation to the Goal of 100% 'perfection' is 9 9 %. The next is 9 9.5 %. And, so on... There's some weirdness, here, where I can't type 2 - 9s adjacent. They show up as asterisks.
The first Solid State Video Displays were $6k or $8K each because it was so hard to make them 'perfect'. Imagine a Display with 1.5 million Pixels. EVERY ONE has to work, or else the Display is trashed. The Eye would be drawn right to the faulty, unlit Pixel. Today, these Processes are so repeatable, you can stroll into Wally World and buy a Big Screen for $600-. Unthinkable a few years ago...
In Semiconductor Processes, 9 9 % near-perfection was a unspoken given. Process Steps were discussed as being '4 Nines' - **.9999 - or '5 Nines' - **.99999% - in Statistical Analysis of a Process Run. The assumed values were always to the right of the decimal.
My point - and I do have one - is that I see 'never Drinking again' as a sort of Successive Approximation toward the Goal of 'perfect' Sobriety. We used to discuss 'Zero Defects' about every day. In my Life, this Concept is 'Zero Relapses'. Technically, as mentioned above, 'it ain't over til it's over'. However, I'll be GD'ed if I'm ever going to pop back onto SR and discuss a 'slip'. I do not look down whatsoever on those who 'slip'. Guano occurs. Indeed, them sharing their Stories puts some Steel in my Spine to continue to 'straighten up and fly right', as the old WW II Song Lyric goes.
Neither I, nor Semiconductor Processes, are perfect. But, I can achieve the state of Zero Defects on the Goal of uninterrupted Sobriety. That's how I think and live.
Working-cl*** pseudo tough
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 485
Originally Posted by samseb5351
I genuinely do not wont to get into a debate here. Debates ((especially philosophical ones) can be painful distractions and often become about I'm right your wrong crap. If my questions or statements have set that of I apologize. My aim in all these discussions is to explore thinking and ideas, to challenge each other. Not for one moment would I expect anyone to believe what I say. I encourage people to go out and find out for yourself,
Our beliefs and ideas for quitting our addiction should all be fair game, especially when the OP asks.
One nice thing about a philosophical debate is that one can acknowledge the validity of a different viewpoint even if it does not match their own.
The main thing is to ensure we are open minded and treat each other respectfully in the discussion - which we have.
Glad you have participated in the discussion.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Originally Posted by samseb5351
Saying you will never drink again is making statement about the future, making a knowledge claim about something you cannot possible know, I would suggest its a belief about something you cannot know or a belief without evidence. In a strange way what appears to be a statement of ultimate confidence is actually a a non theistic Faith claim.
In other words, I will never now drink. I believe that this is something knowable, with certainty.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 306
Originally Posted by freshstart57
When I say I will never drink again, in a way I am making a statement about the present rather than the future. I consider that I have sliced and diced my entire future regarding alcohol into an unknowable number of infinitesimally small lumps, instants that represent a series of present moments stretching from now until my last breath. Every one of those lumps will be a present moment when they happen, in their turn, just like this one right now. I am confident in my future sobriety because I know with certainty I will not now drink. I got that one nailed.
In other words, I will never now drink. I believe that this is something knowable, with certainty.
In other words, I will never now drink. I believe that this is something knowable, with certainty.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by freshstart57
When I say I will never drink again, in a way I am making a statement about the present rather than the future. I consider that I have sliced and diced my entire future regarding alcohol into an unknowable number of infinitesimally small lumps, instants that represent a series of present moments stretching from now until my last breath. Every one of those lumps will be a present moment when they happen, in their turn, just like this one right now. I am confident in my future sobriety because I know with certainty I will not now drink. I got that one nailed. In other words, I will never now drink. I believe that this is something knowable, with certainty.
Working-cl*** pseudo tough
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 485
I hope this thread has been as thought provoking for others as it has been for me.
Since I started it last week, I've been thinking very philosophically about a number of religious and secular concepts, especially as how they relate to my newfound sobriety. Even cracked open some Old Testament, and did some research on Catholicism (fundamentally the root of all modern Christianity).
Heck, I've got little else to do with all the free time I have from not drinking. LOL. Also weird (and somewhat enjoyable) feeling the brain working on something other than where I'm buying my next drink, how I'm drinking my next drink (so no one notices) and how I'm paying for my next drink (also so that no one notices).
As someone who was brought up Christian, who lives his lives by Christian principles, and has instructed his Children in the Christian faith, I believe I am at an interesting point in my life.
I believe I may be bordering on becoming atheistic. Talk about an unexpected twist in becoming sober.
To me, becoming sober is releasing a dependency on a chemical, and empowering oneself to accomplish this. This logically extends into everyday life, where one can empower themselves to live a moral and positive life, without a dependency on faith. Regardless of ones beliefs, I still firmly believe that my deity did not make me drink, so my deity will not make me stop drinking.
Very interesting thought and faith journey - wonder where this will end up?
Since I started it last week, I've been thinking very philosophically about a number of religious and secular concepts, especially as how they relate to my newfound sobriety. Even cracked open some Old Testament, and did some research on Catholicism (fundamentally the root of all modern Christianity).
Heck, I've got little else to do with all the free time I have from not drinking. LOL. Also weird (and somewhat enjoyable) feeling the brain working on something other than where I'm buying my next drink, how I'm drinking my next drink (so no one notices) and how I'm paying for my next drink (also so that no one notices).
As someone who was brought up Christian, who lives his lives by Christian principles, and has instructed his Children in the Christian faith, I believe I am at an interesting point in my life.
I believe I may be bordering on becoming atheistic. Talk about an unexpected twist in becoming sober.
To me, becoming sober is releasing a dependency on a chemical, and empowering oneself to accomplish this. This logically extends into everyday life, where one can empower themselves to live a moral and positive life, without a dependency on faith. Regardless of ones beliefs, I still firmly believe that my deity did not make me drink, so my deity will not make me stop drinking.
Very interesting thought and faith journey - wonder where this will end up?
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