Blogs


Notices

Moderation Management

Old 07-15-2014, 05:17 AM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Hears The Voice
Thread Starter
 
Nonsensical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,713
Blog Entries: 20
Moderation Management

MM has come up on the fora here from time to time, so I visited their website to check it out. Not because I am interested in trying moderate drinking - that ship has sailed - but I wanted to see what they were pedaling. I went there with a let's see what this bullspit is all about attitude, not a fully open mind. I am familiar with the tragic story about the founder (Audrey Kishline) and my own numerous attempts at moderation/control. I was on a snake oil hunt.

I did not find snake oil. I came away with some appreciation for their program. It is secular and rational, and may be helpful to some people. They fully admit their program is not for everyone and that 30% of the people that try MM eventually move to an abstinence-based program. I could not find any references to a specific (or recommended) abstinence method on their site.

It got me wondering if I had tried MM years ago if I would have concluded sooner that I needed abstinence. I kept trying my own moderation programs, thinking I would come up with some set of restrictions that worked. Perhaps if I had tried a more regimented approach like MM when it failed I would have moved toward abstinence sooner than I did. Can't turn back the hands of time, of course, but I can't rule out that it might have helped convince me earlier there was only one drinking program I can control - the zero consumption method.

I had previously discounted MM based on my assumption that it did nothing but convince people who can't control their drinking that they can - putting them in potentially dangerous situations. It very likely has that effect on at least some of the members, but now I can conceive of situations where it might also be helpful.

Thoughts?
Nonsensical is online now  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Nonsensical For This Useful Post:
Coldfusion (07-15-2014), FeenixxRising (07-15-2014), jdooner (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), Olive1 (07-15-2014), silentrun (07-15-2014), Soberpotamus (07-16-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 05:57 AM
  # 2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
I think it's cool that you did some research and learned what the program is about. Like you, moderation is definitely not for me, but if I'm going to discuss something I need to at least have a base knowledge of the important tenets.

For me, the important thing to understand about moderation was what true "moderation" with alcohol really means. There are strict guidelines about amounts and frequency . What I failed to understand when I said I was so-called moderating was that moderation does not mean cutting back from 10 beers a night to 7. It also does not mean saving up the allotted drinks per day and drinking them all at once. Nor does it mean skipping a day of drinking, or drinking 5 nights instead of 7. None of those would be considered true attempts at moderation, by the government's definition of moderation.

I think that if I were to strictly followed the program, it would take no time at all for me to see that I could not follow it indefinitely as written. It could serve as a wake up call for many, and likely has.

The other misconception I had was that MM was against abstinence, which is not true. It is my understanding that they encourage abstinence for those unable to moderate.
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
FeenixxRising (07-15-2014), jdooner (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), silentrun (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 06:00 AM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Member
 
jdooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Well, I am guilty of using the Audrey Kishline story in dramatic fashion to illustrate how MM is rooted in failure. However, like you, I have never given it a fair shake. I have perused the website but my knowledge is cursory at best.

I suppose its my own insecurities that lead me to this conclusion. What am I scared of? I guess deep down I know how bad things truely got for me and to reinforce my own program I am guilty of projecting my fears on others, particularly around moderation. I was asked by somoene why I don't go back out and I could feel all my muscles tense up. I just don't think I would come back, as my last try at sobriety was in '96. Also, I never liked the taste of alcohol it was always the high.

For me I escalated quickly from the booze into the drugs and all boundaries were broken down. I know I would migrate to a crack pipe if I returned to the drink and I know what that will mean for me.

There is a part of my that wants to save others from experiencing the same pain that I have...I know logically and rationally this is not only absurd and futile but also dangerous as I can push someone away that I might have otherwise been able to help by sharing my experience.

I am realizing this is more me and part of my journey of getting well too.
jdooner is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to jdooner For This Useful Post:
DoubleDragons (07-16-2014), FeenixxRising (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), silentrun (07-15-2014), soberlicious (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 06:28 AM
  # 4 (permalink)  
voices ca**y
 
silentrun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 3,822
Blog Entries: 1
I was all over that site in the first few months of recovery. Not because I want to moderate but it came up in google searches. There is some good info on there especially about brain impairment and healing. I have never really tried to moderate. Had I tried 11 years ago after my first blackout maybe I could have. Like you said bacon boy that shipped has sailed. If I drink now it is to get drunk and stay that way. There is no satisfaction in it at all anymore
My take on it was that it was damage control for people who just can't seem to wrap their heads around quitting. Maybe if a person tried a control moderation technique it would bring them one step closer the realizing just what they are up against. If 30% go on to decide abstinence is best it would appear people who use it are sincere.
silentrun is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to silentrun For This Useful Post:
alphaomega (07-15-2014), FeenixxRising (07-15-2014), jdooner (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), Olive1 (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 06:34 AM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 4,225
My life is honestly so good now, I couldn't even be bothered with drinking, or even reading that moderation is possible.

That's a nice place to be.

Nearly a year ago...I would have been popping that one in the "just in case I want to drink again" vault. Thankfully that vault does not exist anymore that I can tell.
Croissant is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Croissant For This Useful Post:
alphaomega (07-15-2014), Carlotta (07-15-2014), Carlygirl (08-26-2014), FeenixxRising (07-15-2014), jdooner (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 06:35 AM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Hears The Voice
Thread Starter
 
Nonsensical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,713
Blog Entries: 20
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
For me, the important thing to understand about moderation was what true "moderation" with alcohol really means.
An excellent point. I once told a Navy doc that I was drinking to help overcome insomnia (which I actually believed at the time). She asked how much I drank, and I knew the truth (16-18 drinks 5-7 nights/week) was going to cause concern, so I cut it in half and told her 7-8 drinks 5 nights a week. That seemed moderate to me at the time. I was stunned by her reaction. My concept of moderate drinking was far removed from truly moderate drinking.

2-3 drinks in a night had less appeal to me than not drinking at all even when I was drinking regularly. Most of my personal attempts at moderation did not involve drinking socially, but rather in limiting the number of nights per week I was getting drunk.

Perhaps MM would have shown me earlier that my personal definition of moderation was nothing close to actual moderation.
Nonsensical is online now  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Nonsensical For This Useful Post:
Boudicca (07-15-2014), Croissant (07-15-2014), jdooner (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), soberlicious (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 07:07 AM
  # 7 (permalink)  
Member
 
jdooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
[QUOTE=Nonsensical;4780830]2-3 drinks in a night had less appeal to me than not drinking at all even when I was drinking regularly. Most of my personal attempts at moderation did not involve drinking socially, but rather in limiting the number of nights per week I was getting drunk.
QUOTE]


Lol...that would also be regular pours. I am not sure if you rationalized with the number, say 4-5 drinks a night like I did. The problem with my drinks is they were 4x the pour of what is considered a normal drink.

Like I said, for me I only drank to get drunk. This took becomign really honest and crossing from the year of denial and looking in the mirror. Not fun or pretty but quite nessasry for this path.
jdooner is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jdooner For This Useful Post:
Boudicca (07-15-2014), FeenixxRising (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 08:09 AM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
 
leviathan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: illinois
Posts: 907
i tried to moderate by myself several times without a program. always slid into too much. i understand that a program gives structure and more control. im sure it works for some.

for me personally though, i feel like at some point a switch in my head was flipped. when i picture myself using a program like this, i can imagine myself putting the glass down at my allotted cutoff point. although i might be able to follow the rules, I would ABSOLUTELY want more. it would be an exercise in repetitive teasing, with every exposure making my feel as if i was "left hanging". eventually i would have to drink proper-like. LOL!

the thing is, if im absolutely honest, i was never in love with the taste. my hobby of beer and wine appreciation would have never taken off without the special ingredient. i cant imagine getting into all the nuances of different styles of beverages if they were all grape juices and near beer.

no. i was in love with the buzz. to have it waved in my face and not be able to go to climax would just make me mad. id bet anything that some folks trying this method get a little cranky at cutoff time.
leviathan is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to leviathan For This Useful Post:
Boudicca (07-15-2014), jdooner (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), soberlicious (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 08:26 AM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Blog Entries: 1
moderation management is simply a normal and rational approach to change a negative behavior that is burned at the stake due to the abstinence fixation in the US, Western Europe and Australia. This is our recovery culture. In other parts of the world it is just one way that many people come out of addiction. There is a fear that if it is even discussed that it could start a domino effect of people breaking their sobriety on this site or elsewhere...leading them to a quick demise...I think this is ridiculous but it is what it is
caboblanco is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to caboblanco For This Useful Post:
Boudicca (07-15-2014), FeenixxRising (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), Shining~Again (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 08:37 AM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Hears The Voice
Thread Starter
 
Nonsensical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,713
Blog Entries: 20
My expectation is that if we sent the membership of SR over to MM to give it a whirl we would find the percentage of SR members failing to manage moderation and opting for a permanent abstinence program would be in the high 90s. Most of us have been to the circus and seen the ponies already. I am not suggesting anyone here give moderation management a try.

We have had quite a few pleasant academic discussions lately and I was hoping to start another.
Nonsensical is online now  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Nonsensical For This Useful Post:
Boudicca (07-15-2014), Carlotta (07-15-2014), FT (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 08:41 AM
  # 11 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Blog Entries: 1
Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
My expectation is that if we sent the membership of SR over to MM to give it a whirl we would find the percentage of SR members failing to manage moderation and opting for a permanent abstinence program would be in the high 90s. Most of us have been to the circus and seen the ponies already. I am not suggesting anyone here give moderation management a try.

We have had quite a few pleasant academic discussions lately and I was hoping to start another.
the people who are vocal about moderation are the ones that know it won't work for them... the people that could consider it or had success with it rather not mention it at SR or other recovery circles
caboblanco is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to caboblanco For This Useful Post:
NightsWatch (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 08:51 AM
  # 12 (permalink)  
voices ca**y
 
silentrun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 3,822
Blog Entries: 1
The day I quit was the day I realized all I wanted to do was drink. There actually was a time when I had an off switch. The dangerous drinking habits lead to loss of control. I knew at age 35 something had drastically changed but I kept going another 10 years. Moderation management should have begun before the first blackout. Once I realized I had a problem it was probably already to late. That's OK. I feel like the decision to quit was mine alone. Nobody pressured me into it. I saw the situation and I saw the way out. Owning the right to quit instead of feeling forced into it made this possible.
silentrun is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to silentrun For This Useful Post:
jdooner (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), Olive1 (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 08:55 AM
  # 13 (permalink)  
Canine Welfare Advocate
 
doggonecarl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 10,797
Blog Entries: 22
Originally Posted by caboblanco View Post
...the people that could consider it or had success with it rather not mention it at SR or other recovery circles
Why would anyone who is having success with moderation be on SR? I don't think they are. So we only see one end of the pendulum, where it swings to "Moderation doesn't work for me."

Maybe for problem drinkers, the techniques laid out in MM keep them in check. But for non-problem, "normal" drinkers...they don't need techniques, they moderate by the very nature of their physiology.
doggonecarl is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to doggonecarl For This Useful Post:
Carlotta (07-15-2014), jdooner (07-15-2014), NightsWatch (07-15-2014), tomsteve (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 09:00 AM
  # 14 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Blog Entries: 1
where could someone safely talk about their success in moderation without getting a birage of negative feedback..ill-will..or told they aren't a real alcoholic? there is really nowhere in this recovery culture....pretty good reason why you don't hear about many people successfully moderating
caboblanco is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to caboblanco For This Useful Post:
NightsWatch (07-15-2014), Shining~Again (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 09:03 AM
  # 15 (permalink)  
Member
 
jdooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
.
jdooner is offline  
Old 07-15-2014, 09:06 AM
  # 16 (permalink)  
quat
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,700
dupe

Last edited by dwtbd; 07-15-2014 at 09:07 AM. Reason: dupe
dwtbd is offline  
Old 07-15-2014, 09:06 AM
  # 17 (permalink)  
quat
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,700
Originally Posted by caboblanco View Post
where could someone safely talk about their success in moderation without getting a birage of negative feedback..ill-will..or told they aren't a real alcoholic? there is really nowhere in this recovery culture....pretty good reason why you don't hear about many people successfully moderating
I hear MM has a forum
dwtbd is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to dwtbd For This Useful Post:
jdooner (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 09:11 AM
  # 18 (permalink)  
Member
 
fini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,141
but cabo, as Carl said...why would someone who moderates contentedly be on a "recovery" site to discuss it?
fini is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to fini For This Useful Post:
Carlotta (07-15-2014), jdooner (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 09:13 AM
  # 19 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Blog Entries: 1
if you want to see something funny..try to get into the MM forum
caboblanco is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to caboblanco For This Useful Post:
silentrun (07-15-2014), tomsteve (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 09:14 AM
  # 20 (permalink)  
voices ca**y
 
silentrun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 3,822
Blog Entries: 1
Originally Posted by caboblanco View Post
where could someone safely talk about their success in moderation without getting a birage of negative feedback..ill-will..or told they aren't a real alcoholic? there is really nowhere in this recovery culture....pretty good reason why you don't hear about many people successfully moderating
No matter what you say about anything someone is going to disagree anyway. SR is for abstainers. If I was content to just cut back I wouldn't have joined this site. It doesn't bother me in the least when people talk about moderation. If that was my goal I would have tried it. I do like the idea that the one with the problem gets to decide how to deal with it. I know a few self described alcoholics that have no intention of quitting ever. One guy at work brags about how he is an alcoholic but never call in sick.
silentrun is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:26 AM.