caboblanco

i didn't know this was a sobriety only website but I was referring to the the total recovery community. it really doesn't matter the whole community is abstinence based

jdooner

Cabo what would you like? Do you want to be right? Do you want others here to view you as smarter? Do you want members to praise people who try to moderate?

Other than to argue, I don't understand what a positive outcome could be for you in this thread. I mean this sincerely and I respect you.

caboblanco

the op asked for people's thoughts..then somebody else asked why i wrote something...i responded with thoughts...no emotion..no agenda....i don't need people to tell me what i'm thinking.or feeling.. i know that already..thank you....that type of stuff doesn't effect me in any way

NightsWatch

I think the majority of us on SR can't moderate (including me), which is why we're here, but I do know people in real life who have moved from heavy drinking to moderate drinking, and that's the reason I hate to insist it can't work or be too negative about it. Who am I do say? Everyone is different. Except those of us who are the same.

Anecdotal story: Being someone with an alcohol problem, I feel that I sort of have a spidey sense about others with the same problem (does anyone else feel that way?) and there is a guy I know from HS that I've had this feeling about for a while. He is a moderate drinker now who used to drink A LOT. When we're out or there's alcohol around, I always get the sense that he would prefer more (and I know I'm not projecting because I don't feel this way about all my friends who drink). I know he's moderating because he used to always be about more! more! more! back in the day, and now he always seems to be very careful about getting the one, sometimes two beers. People I know who don't have a problem aren't usually as deliberate about the number of drinks they have the way this guy is. Anyway, he never looks satisfied after having his beer(s) so I don't understand the appeal. Maybe he likes the taste? But he's the person I always think about for successful moderation.

Nonsensical

When I log into a website called "Sober Recovery" my expectation is that it will be about sobriety. I am having trouble understanding why that wasn't/isn't your expectation, too.

Moderation discussions might be better received in a community with a broader range of alcohol experiences. SR has almost exclusively attracted people for whom moderation is not a realistic option. People here are sharing their personal experiences. Since few of us have ever experienced moderation, it doesn't get discussed or recommended very often.

SR could attempt to attract more moderate drinkers, I suppose. I'm not personally interested in that. If I want to hear about someone's moderate drinking experiences I can just talk to my wife. But if other members were interested in discussing moderation it could happen.

This thread is (or was) discussing MM as part the total solution to alcohol abuse. I think it could have a place, even for people who will never be able to moderate their drinking - if, as advertised, it helps them get to an understanding that they need abstinence. If it also gets some people to understand and enjoy true moderation - that's good, too.

soberlicious

Since MM requires an initial 3 month abstinence period, it would be interesting to know how many just decide to continue abstinence after that instead of reintroducing moderate amounts of alcohol. I would wager not many, but I could be very wrong. There have been plenty of ppl here at SR that quit for a 30 day trial and then just never went back so I know it's possible.

dwtbd

After reading RR , I am even more suspicious of 'recoveryism' and the resultant attitudes toward addiction that run through the general public or mainstream.
This thread makes me wonder which individuals are more alcohol centric/ obsessed , those who abstain or those who use a consumption maintainence program and I would assume would need to revisist said program on an ongoing basis.
For me as an individual I choose abstinence and the more time between past drinking and the present seems to correlate with less and less mental energy expended on alcohol centric thought, again perhaps ironic coming from a regular poster on a recovery site, but my commitment sobriety is still relatively new.
More power to people who benefit from programs aimed at harm reduction, though defining the harm and first cause should be a primary it seems to be successful in such an endeavour.

caboblanco

lol..you asked about peoples opinion on the method...If you thought it was off limits..why did you ask? So we can discuss it..we just can't talk about it's success or admit that we are using it ourselves? What are the rules here if you know them? like I said i was referring to

the total recovery community..not here.. so maybe that confused and angered people. i would think this site was named "sober" recovery because it's a given if you are in recovery that you are trying to get are are currently sober...I don't think whoever purposely named it that the specifically exclude those who choose moderation..but if they did it's pretty comical what point you are trying to make here after your op.

anyway i'm sorry that not all the responses were exactly what you were looking for..

but that would be a rhetorical question then...

Ken33xx

To drink in moderation. Now wouldn't that be nice.

Unfortunately, I don't believe I can.

Easiest thing for me is to avoid that first drink

Nonsensical

Nothing is off limits (unless it violates forum rules, of course, but I don't enforce those). I think you have brought up several interesting points.

I have no experience with the total recovery community, but it seemed to me that you were expressing dissatisfaction that moderation discussions aren't well-received at SR, and I was providing an explanation as to why that would be, and why that should be expected.

anattaboy

Cabo, I feel your frustration. Would be nice if all could just get along but the polarization exists for now between moderation and abstinence. Not so long ago secular sobriety was not recognized but enough wheels squeaked. The general consensus is that suggesting "real alcoholics" to attempt moderation is a death sentence (when in fact it may be the quickest way to find out if it is a viable option) or misinformation of some sort. I tapered to quit (a method endorsed on harm-redux and medical sites but not so much here). I have no intention to moderate-I quit for good (no harm to reduce anymore. Most of my clinical research came from elsewhere but I also value this site for what it does offer--Kinda like shopping at different stores for different foodstuffs to fill the cupboards. Stick around and squeak if ya want....Peace..

caboblanco

i don't moderate..i just was answering the OP's question. hey i didn't start this thread. I don't know if the point of a moderation opinion thread is just to get everybody to rally up and dismiss it...as a sort of ego puffing technique for the sober community. that seems to be the only reason to ask the question here...about.."what do you think about moderation?" boo hiss...those silly moderators

I answered that i think it's a good method for many..I get to this conclusion from studies and statistics iv'e read and also from people i know personally...of course nobody has to agree with that...but if they think that's somehow a cheap shot to their own "feelings" on recovery....Its hard not to see the dysfunction in that

and there is also no moderation store....thats a path people take alone...recovery is run by a walmart type thing

jdooner

The idea of moderating creates anxiety for me personally. I tried to moderate for years and was unsuccessful. Perhaps I am projecting my own fears because I now realize how close I pushed things to the limit. This is all on me and my own personal experience.

From a purely academic perspective, I fail to understand moderation unless the end goal is abstinence in a harm reduction model. Most harm reduction models for heroin are designed to substitute a less harmful drug like SubOx to eventually get the addict to a point where abstinence is the goal. So I fail to understand the goal of moderation with respect to drinking, at least active moderation that does not come naturally. To me this suggests signs of a problem. Reisingwood1 - I am all for tapering. Its logical and can make sense in a harm redux mindset (DTs, seizures, acute withdrawal syndrome, etc). But the end goal was abstinence. I would love to hear others on why moderation over a prolonged period is umbrellaed under the harm reduction that many of you support. To me this is very cultural.

As I stated in my original response, I have never given MM a fair shake and have been guilty of a knee jerk reactions using Audrey Kishline's story as an example to bolster a point. This is wrong of me. It perhaps should be used to highlight how deep denial and addiction run, as she is still active today I believe. It highlights to what ends we as self identified addicts will go to rationalize our own use, even creating our own programs. I know I knew more than Jack Tripey and Bill Wilson at one point in my recovery, lol. I also knew that if you followed JDooner's recovery plan everything would be perfect, at least according to JDooner, lol.

I now see the faulty mindset in the above.

MesaMan

Moderation, Schmoderation...

For some section of the Alk Bell Curve, I'm sure Moderation might work. I won't even guess what that Population percentage might be.

Mindful that this is just an Opinion Of One, I just cannot be bothered at this point. And, not even because of fear of the Relapse Boogie Man, actually. It's just too easy to not pick up. Ever. I keep waiting for the Alk Monster Under My Bed to reach up and snatch me back into Drinking, and it just ain't a happenin'.

I bought this gorgeous new Truck yesterday, after my usual A-R Research on line. I was thinking how difficult this all would have been while 'lightly' hammered; my usual State prior. Besides the Sales Guys perhaps smelling me and not wanting to slip me Truck Keys for a Test Drive, it takes considerable stamina to keep up with the Shell Game of Price; Financing; and Trade-in Value. Really nice Dealership, as Dealerships go.

~5.5 hours later, we both were famished. So, we ducked into a nice Italian Joint with Happy Hour going full tilt. Da Wife had a few $5- celebratory Martinis, and I stuck with fresh-squeezed Lemonade. I simply sat with my Back to the Bar and dug the low Meal Prices. The Alcohol part was a non-event, since Da Wife has cut way back on her consumption. Way back. As we all know, just celebrating this Life Event of my new Vehicle in 14 years was also re-tooled yesterday. 'Celebration' need not include Alcohol. Whatta concept, eh?

These sorts of 're-Tooled' experiences - doing ordinary stuff while Sober - is my incentive. I'm too lazy to become lazy again. My Sober Firewall works for me 6+ months in; the only Person it need work for. Pretty effortless, really...

Soberpotamus

Good points raised, Non. I did try out MM for about a 1-2 year period a few years ago. It did seem legit. It just wasn't for me, and I soon realized what a farce it was for me, personally, to try and "moderate" my drinking It certainly seemed to work for others on there, and all the power to them for making it work. I'm not sure what my "failure" there did for my drinking overall... but you do raise a great point. Maybe it did bring to my attention the level of my addiction? Anyway, it was an exercise in mindfulness, that's for sure.

Shining~Again

I've always been confused at the lack of understanding when it comes to tapering alcohol. My experience has been that if a patient refuses medication to withdrawal with, detox in a hospital, no ER if things go bad (which they can in a second), that doctors must go with giving the patient a tapering plan. It's too dangerous and irresponsible to not do that.

I see harm reduction and moderation as very much being not supported by most.

Since no one else has mentioned it yet, Kishline wasn't a part of MM when the accident occured. She'd been back to AA.
(if I am repeating another - sorry. Am always kind of flying in and out of here fast.)

Cheers!

Nonsensical

I'm curious, since you were an MM insider, was there a specific abstinence program MM recommended? When Audrey Kishline announced she was giving up moderation in favor of abstinence she announced she was going to use AA. (It wasn't clear to me if she actually started AA before her car crash or if she just said she was going to go.) I have been curious if that was an MM official position or Ms Kishline's personal preference.

It just seemed inconsistent to go from a CBT-based moderation program to a non-CBT-based abstinence program, and I have always wondered.

Soberpotamus

Not that I can recall, no. At that point in time, I had already used SMART (I picked this first out of all the programs, and that was in 2003). And from there, I tried MM. That was probably a 5-6 year period. After MM, I went to Women For Sobriety for a while. And from there, to SR. And then I learned that RR and AVRT were pretty much what I identified with most up to that point. WFS reminds me most of AA, but framed in a more positive, female oriented language. So after AVRT, I went back to WFS briefly, and then I went into IOP and finally, AA. That sums up my course of action.

Somehow I found WFS the most logical choice following my failures to moderate in MM. Then, at some point I just found it lacking. And AA filled in some gaps there.

Now, I like to think I have a cumulative, hybrid sort of program for myself. And now, I am identifying easily with Buddhist concepts, mindfulness and the Vipassana (insight) style of meditation. That's about as spiritual as I'll probably get.