Frustration or Insensitivity?
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,416
I wasn't here when the secular forum was shut down either.
In any case, I didn't intend this thread to become a metacritical discussion.
I can tell you what the rules are - and why they are what they are - which is what I did after NW's post...but I'm just helping out.
I haven't removed any posts from this thread, bar one.
I don't know about other sites, but here, I call that a win
If you have any comments complaints or suggestions you need to direct them, via PM, to the assigned mods/admins.
D
In any case, I didn't intend this thread to become a metacritical discussion.
I can tell you what the rules are - and why they are what they are - which is what I did after NW's post...but I'm just helping out.
I haven't removed any posts from this thread, bar one.
I don't know about other sites, but here, I call that a win
If you have any comments complaints or suggestions you need to direct them, via PM, to the assigned mods/admins.
D
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by MesaMan 
Rather than us tiptoeing around, perhaps it's time to move this Thread, as you suggested. What do others here think?
I guess the other thing is who's tiptoeing around, lol.
Hey Trach!
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
the most prevelant recovery method can't be talked about in a critical manner. the problem is that's hard to avoid because it's not just the program it's all the philosophies the program has adopted that controls the recovery culture...the disease model..the
rules of alcoholism...the term alcoholism itself etc..it's very much ingrained in the culture..not just in recovery circles...if it was just science or a philosophy I don't think people would mind criticism or skepticism...but it's not that..it's something else entirely
rules of alcoholism...the term alcoholism itself etc..it's very much ingrained in the culture..not just in recovery circles...if it was just science or a philosophy I don't think people would mind criticism or skepticism...but it's not that..it's something else entirely
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
Kally,
This thread would not be the best place for a Newcomer to "sample" what's available on SR.
Secular Connections looks at alternatives to "mainstream" recovery methods. And a better "sample" of this section would be found among the stickies at the top of the page.
Sorry you don't like us.
This thread would not be the best place for a Newcomer to "sample" what's available on SR.
Secular Connections looks at alternatives to "mainstream" recovery methods. And a better "sample" of this section would be found among the stickies at the top of the page.
Sorry you don't like us.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by caboblanco
the most prevelant recovery method can't be talked about in a critical manner. the problem is that's hard to avoid because it's not just the program it's all the philosophies the program has adopted that controls the recovery culture...the disease model..the
rules of alcoholism...the term alcoholism itself etc..it's very much ingrained in the culture..not just in recovery circles...if it was just science or a philosophy I don't think people would mind criticism or skepticism...but it's not that..it's something else entirely
rules of alcoholism...the term alcoholism itself etc..it's very much ingrained in the culture..not just in recovery circles...if it was just science or a philosophy I don't think people would mind criticism or skepticism...but it's not that..it's something else entirely
Addiction is behavior and physiology. I don't see how religion has anything to do with it, but you can interject religion into anything I suppose.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by FT
Sorry you don't like us.
Wow.
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 132
I posted earlier about sorting things and ideas, and maybe this applies to the turn the discussion has taken.
Years ago I realize I hoard. Things, weight, food, stuff, clothes and maybe that is like my addiction. Somehow thinking more was the answer and would keep me safe.
And so along with my recovery I got rid of stuff and saw I could do without rather easily, it was a relief to not have to protect everything and worry over it.
And we can do that with an idea or belief. Feel like if we don't keep it and defend it that we might lose everything. And maybe pad more and more belief and details, like a beaver putting more mud and sticks on a damn.
everything starts to look like the enemy.
i lived that way for a long time. I believed that my things were an extendsion of me so I had to protect them. I thought drinking was too. I thought my ideas were me and had to defend every one. I was at war with life.
did you ever meet a person and when you say "hello!" they say "oh yeah, what did you mean by that?"
Years ago I realize I hoard. Things, weight, food, stuff, clothes and maybe that is like my addiction. Somehow thinking more was the answer and would keep me safe.
And so along with my recovery I got rid of stuff and saw I could do without rather easily, it was a relief to not have to protect everything and worry over it.
And we can do that with an idea or belief. Feel like if we don't keep it and defend it that we might lose everything. And maybe pad more and more belief and details, like a beaver putting more mud and sticks on a damn.
everything starts to look like the enemy.
i lived that way for a long time. I believed that my things were an extendsion of me so I had to protect them. I thought drinking was too. I thought my ideas were me and had to defend every one. I was at war with life.
did you ever meet a person and when you say "hello!" they say "oh yeah, what did you mean by that?"
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
Describing the posts on this thread as "dismissive," followed by a "good for you" comment seems pretty clear to me.
I do not think I expressed an "apologist" attitude. I really am sorry she doesn't like us, and I thought it helpful to point out the stickies to someone who may not know they are up there for a reason.
I do not think I expressed an "apologist" attitude. I really am sorry she doesn't like us, and I thought it helpful to point out the stickies to someone who may not know they are up there for a reason.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by Archelon
And we can do that with an idea or belief. Feel like if we don't keep it and defend it that we might lose everything. And maybe pad more and more belief and details, like a beaver putting more mud and sticks on a damn.
everything starts to look like the enemy.
i lived that way for a long time. I believed that my things were an extendsion of me so I had to protect them. I thought drinking was too. I thought my ideas were me and had to defend every one. I was at war with life.
did you ever meet a person and when you say "hello!" they say "oh yeah, what did you mean by that?"
everything starts to look like the enemy.
i lived that way for a long time. I believed that my things were an extendsion of me so I had to protect them. I thought drinking was too. I thought my ideas were me and had to defend every one. I was at war with life.
did you ever meet a person and when you say "hello!" they say "oh yeah, what did you mean by that?"
I love that post.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
You assume too much is what I'm bringing to my discussion with you on the meaningfulness of Kally's opinion. You then take your assumption and proceed to give advice on something that is entirely based on your assumptions being valid, when in fact your clueless on the worth of your assumptions since her opinion is as valid as anyone else's.
In any case, let's now agree to disagree FT, as we are both aware this is not a private discussion thread. I'm satisfied. Thanks for your response.
For all I know, she might come back and thank you and tell me to take a look at myself, lol.
Take it easy, FT.
In any case, let's now agree to disagree FT, as we are both aware this is not a private discussion thread. I'm satisfied. Thanks for your response.
For all I know, she might come back and thank you and tell me to take a look at myself, lol.
Take it easy, FT.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
"Alcoholic" is the rest of society's term for people who drink too much alcohol. It's just a convenient way to refer to those whose addictions involve consuming alcohol. I think only those within the recovery and addictions (and psychology, neuroscience, etc) industry nitpick over "true alcoholism" or the "science" of alcoholism, etc.
When I hear someone refer to themselves as an addict I think, ok that person has an addiction problem involving drugs of some sort. Same with alcohol. I personally think of myself as an addict (because alcohol is a drug), though many in a certain recovery paradigm make a distinction between addicts and alcoholics... and I don't think the distinction is scientific, it's for practicality and solidarity. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it's one way of thinking.
My thoughts on programs like AA, and some of the mindfulness approaches such as the one where Alan Marlatt studied Vipassana buddhist meditation technique and its effect on drinkers... without indicating my preferences about them, I'd like to point out that they are creative. Quite creative. And whenever there's a need for something new, novel approaches, creativity seems to be what people tap into in order to solve problems (alcoholism, problem drinking, whatever you wanna call it...).
So does it have to be a hard science for it to work for people? And if it works, does it have to satisfy certain criteria in order to be valid?
When I hear someone refer to themselves as an addict I think, ok that person has an addiction problem involving drugs of some sort. Same with alcohol. I personally think of myself as an addict (because alcohol is a drug), though many in a certain recovery paradigm make a distinction between addicts and alcoholics... and I don't think the distinction is scientific, it's for practicality and solidarity. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it's one way of thinking.
My thoughts on programs like AA, and some of the mindfulness approaches such as the one where Alan Marlatt studied Vipassana buddhist meditation technique and its effect on drinkers... without indicating my preferences about them, I'd like to point out that they are creative. Quite creative. And whenever there's a need for something new, novel approaches, creativity seems to be what people tap into in order to solve problems (alcoholism, problem drinking, whatever you wanna call it...).
So does it have to be a hard science for it to work for people? And if it works, does it have to satisfy certain criteria in order to be valid?
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by SoberJennie
So does it have to be a hard science for it to work for people? And if it works, does it have to satisfy certain criteria in order to be valid?
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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there is a political guideline for any recovery circle.. for here it's to not talk anything but praise for 12 step regardless of statistics or research. regarless what forum section..talking badly about other methods such as avrt...rational recovery..life ring..seems to be ok..as long as you praise 12 step afterwards and say it's working for you. for .moderation management the gloves are off and anything is allowed bashing wise . stating that moderation management has worked for you or others..regardless if that's true or what research shows..that is off limits and not wanted
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Cabo, maybe it's the perceived intent behind the praise or criticisms? Isn't there a difference between constructive criticisms and critiques of something you try out and doesn't work well for you, and then proceeding to bash the program(s) because of your experience with it?
I saw Moderation Management work for some people on the forum when I was there. It didn't work for me. I don't bash MM because of it. Those people didn't have the same issues I must have with my drinking, or they were somehow able to make it work despite that, who knows? AVRT was something I used when I first joined SR, but I drank again. I've never thought that AVRT was flawed because of this. I have my opinions about AVRT's efficacy, and I keep this in mind.
But doesn't it come back to motivation and intent when we talk about the efficacy of programs? Are we fighting to fight, or discussing in order to help one another achieve sobriety goals?
Are the people who stand to gain in the political debate on recovery here on this forum? Or are most of us here to give and receive help?
I saw Moderation Management work for some people on the forum when I was there. It didn't work for me. I don't bash MM because of it. Those people didn't have the same issues I must have with my drinking, or they were somehow able to make it work despite that, who knows? AVRT was something I used when I first joined SR, but I drank again. I've never thought that AVRT was flawed because of this. I have my opinions about AVRT's efficacy, and I keep this in mind.
But doesn't it come back to motivation and intent when we talk about the efficacy of programs? Are we fighting to fight, or discussing in order to help one another achieve sobriety goals?
Are the people who stand to gain in the political debate on recovery here on this forum? Or are most of us here to give and receive help?
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
The alcoholism forum here allows for critical discussion of shared experiences. Bashing isn't allowed on principal of course, since bashing isn't supportive of intelligent disclosure and discussion. Praise of whatever is not a requirement for discussion either, imo.
It makes no sense to join as a member and then offer critical posts to the very rules which must be agreed with to be a member in the first place. The rules exist not to control freedom of discussion but rather they exist and are enforced to protect and enrich such discussions for all contributors no matter the differences of personal experiences shared or observed.
It makes no sense to join as a member and then offer critical posts to the very rules which must be agreed with to be a member in the first place. The rules exist not to control freedom of discussion but rather they exist and are enforced to protect and enrich such discussions for all contributors no matter the differences of personal experiences shared or observed.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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since the recovery community is basically ruled by one single philosophy i believe myths and dogma have to be broken down in order to move forward in recovery and addiction..in this way politics and culture do play a role in future recovery of countless people..you may say
well.such and such person can just take a different path if this way doesn't help him..Is there really a different path? If you go to a addiction therapist what will he do 95% of the time..he will tell you to go to twelve step...if you go to rehab what is the program you are filtered into...if you go to court what do they mandate? if you ask any non addict on the street where do alcoholics go? he will say AA..he will probably know the dogma too and believe it to boot
anyway I don't look down on people who have success in such a program..i just hope they see the control they have on culture and the recovery comunity
well.such and such person can just take a different path if this way doesn't help him..Is there really a different path? If you go to a addiction therapist what will he do 95% of the time..he will tell you to go to twelve step...if you go to rehab what is the program you are filtered into...if you go to court what do they mandate? if you ask any non addict on the street where do alcoholics go? he will say AA..he will probably know the dogma too and believe it to boot
anyway I don't look down on people who have success in such a program..i just hope they see the control they have on culture and the recovery comunity
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The rules apply to protect the forum.
It's not just that 12 Step members will come in and defend their program, but the rules also keep the RR members out who have the sole intention of bashing the 12 step groups and that can get brutal.
If we open it up to all you are asking for we might as well shut it down because we already have that on the alcoholism forum.
This forum has done a lot of good without having to bring in all the criticism of other methods and the constant debates that take over the whole forum.
I don't have any stake in the methods here. I started the forum for our secular members and worked very hard to make it work. I am the one who had to close it down a few years ago for a few days when it got so out of hand.
It took a few years to allow AVRT discussions because no one could do it without the bashing. I have a lot of appreciation for TU for his contribution that finally got it started well here. Many people have been helped since then.
This forum is also not just for those who use AVRT. It is for all secular members.
It works this way.
It's not just that 12 Step members will come in and defend their program, but the rules also keep the RR members out who have the sole intention of bashing the 12 step groups and that can get brutal.
If we open it up to all you are asking for we might as well shut it down because we already have that on the alcoholism forum.
This forum has done a lot of good without having to bring in all the criticism of other methods and the constant debates that take over the whole forum.
I don't have any stake in the methods here. I started the forum for our secular members and worked very hard to make it work. I am the one who had to close it down a few years ago for a few days when it got so out of hand.
It took a few years to allow AVRT discussions because no one could do it without the bashing. I have a lot of appreciation for TU for his contribution that finally got it started well here. Many people have been helped since then.
This forum is also not just for those who use AVRT. It is for all secular members.
It works this way.
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