MidnightBlue

Thank you for your response, LifeRecovery.

Thank you for giving me another point of view, because I do feel now that somehow I am chasing my tail and putting more and more pressure on myself.

I've had a tough day today - got scammed by new employer and got my nose bleeding at the boxing class. When I got home I was ready to go for beating myself up. Then I paused for a second - why am I doing this? Because I instantly imagine my Mother or my ex lecturing me about how infantile and naive I am, and that it serves me well to be burnt and fooled. That for some reason I really deserve to be treated like that....It made me shrink, and bury my head into my shoulders, and almost hate myself preparing perfect ground for AV...

Then I imagined another character on my life scene - someone understanding, strong, not judgemental..Someone who will say "It happens, it's life... Go have some rest. I will handle this for you. Remember, there's your place in the Universe, where no one can harm you. Find this place inside yourself, you have it".

Yes, I am in a...let's say not great situation, but you are right - it doesn't make me a bad person. Though AV wants me to believe otherwise.

As for another way type of recovery - maybe you are right. I think I need some type of recovery which is "learn how to love yourself for whoever you are and recover your own self. Re-cover. Take off the cover and look inside.

Take off the cover, that iron shield that separates me from opportunities in life only because all my life I have believed that, on one side, the world is so hostile that I need bulletproof armor all the way, and on the other hand, I am so "ugly" that I have to hide myself from the world to keep myself protected and "not exposed".

Take off the cover and expose these dark voices to the Sunlight where there is no place for them to hide and fool me.

Recovery as a restoration of crushed faith in myself, repair of beliefs, rejuvenation of love. Is there some type of recovery like this?

See you all.

LifeRecovery

Actually when I read the post (above) about when AV comes out what struck me was how hard it is to fight that "demon" for me. It is the "voice" that gets me into trouble....and the results are the behaviors I don't like afterwards.

Luckily as my recovery has progressed it is not such a harsh voice and it does not come to visit as much. For me (again not knowing much about AV stuff) it has been about decreasing those negative messages I give myself....thus decreasing the chain reactions.

For me it was the act of sharing....it was the act of shining a light on my secrets that decreased the "crazy-making" thinking. I found many outlets for that....and different ones helped at different times.

Have you heard of Brene Brown and her work? She has a number of TED Talks on shame....and how to work through the shame. I see the mediation, your dedication and sharing here etc as shining the light on those hurt pieces so they don't keep weighing you down.

I see the parts where you view yourself as "failing" as loading up more shame which for me gets me all sorts of geared up to get into trouble, because it bring back all those hard, painful memories about being a kid, when I thought it was all my fault etc.

You are not a bad person because you had a bad day.

GerandTwine

MB,

You are drifting away from using Addictive Voice Recognition Technique, but continue to use AVRT terms.

The Addictive Voice has only to do with thoughts of eating more upon reaching the limit for a particular eating period. All you have to do is Recognize those thoughts, separate them from you by calling those thoughts your Addictive Voice, and understand you can decide to refuse to go along with IT EVER AGAIN (ie. make a Big Plan).

All that other stuff going on in your life has nothing to do with your ability to use AVRT. AVRT is really quite basic.

GT

MidnightBlue

Hi, pals)

LifeRecovery - Thank you for your insight, some good food for though for me again. You've touched quite a deep-rooted issue of shame for me. Only recently I've started to think about shame and earlier I had never realized that I have a lot of shame in my life. And most of it shame has little to do with my personality or my actions. My deepest and most painful shame is related to my family - ashamed for being poor, for having such a brother, for a lot of other things that were always out of control. I mean it were things I could never change. This shame goes hand in hand with my habit to feel guilty for everything that goes wrong in any area that somehow happens to be related to my life. And I feel ashamed. It's like if I am wearing a note on my forehead "If you need someone to feel ashamed just for my mere existence, I am the person. Feel free to use me".

I will check the book you've mentioned. This area of my life certainly needs my attention.

And thank you for kind words)

GT - You are right, as usual. I now understand that AVRT is quite basic. And I also realized that I've drifted far away from AVRT itself now. I actually almost stopped doing this.

For some reason again and again I end up engaged in discussions with AV and over complicating all this.

Among other things AV seems to find a perfect breach in my AVRT guard - since binge-eating is not so clear-cut as abandoning sweets, then you can't succeed with it.

It obviously realized its failure convincing me to buy sweets - doesn't matter how bad I feel I just pass by cookies and other stuff like that. But it holds tight to overeating. And I have to be supervigilant because it now makes some tries to re-start my sweet addiction again. Like "Come on, it's insane not to eat sweets. You've done more than three months without them. You are fine".

The simpliest things are often the hardest. AVRT is basic, but somehow AV is constantly fooling me. But I don't give up.

It's me who has the power, not AV after all.

See you all.

Have a great day)

GerandTwine

When you reach the end point of eating a planned amount and then decide "What the heck" and continue serving food into your mouth and swallowing, your AV is not "fooling" you at all. You know exactly what you are doing.

You may be behaving "foolishly" by using AVRT terms to create some sort of unusual reasoning for being powerlessly "fooled", but the AV is nothing more than the residual thoughts and feelings of an old bad habit, trying to get you to keep it up. For instance, I don't believe you can be convinced that there is daylight where you are in the middle of the night. Recognition is simply that black and white. For some reason, you are choosing not to do AVRT, yet still talk all about it.

When I quit sweetened foods for good 20 months ago the only conflict I had with using AVRT was BEFORE I made the Big Plan for sweets, right here on SR. I could easily recognize my sugar Beast, and even understood how I could be separate from IT while I was swallowing some spoonfuls of fruit preserves. But the truth was, when in the act of eating sweets, I and IT had lost all separation. We were again, for that short period, ONE and the same.

I then realized how wonderfully correct, direct, and complete, making the Big Plan for sweets could be IF I WOULD JUST DO IT. So ... I did it. End of conflict.

I think the Big Plan does cause some physical rerouting of neuron pathways. "Never" is the key word.

MB, If you haven't already, you have every capacity to make a Big Plan for alcohol, another one for sweets, and still another one for binge eating.

MidnightBlue

GT - Thank you for your post. I will have to "digest" it a little bit...

Jeni26

Hi MB my friend.

I'm sorry I haven't been around, I have popped in from time to time but admit I've struggled a lot to find the right words to support you. I'm really sad that you are still struggling so much with this, and it saddens me to read how much of this is tied to your self-esteem. Whether you binge or not, you are still that same sweet caring girl you ever were. You are a beautiful person inside and out MB. And these are not idle words just said to try and cheer you up, they are what I know to be true.

AVRT is a simple but effective process. I am no expert, I read the crash course and asked for advice, I guess that's pretty much it. For me it was like making a law...a rule that just couldn't be broken. I identified my beast as the voice that came from the dark side of me..the side that wanted to keep me trapped in the past. And I got lucky I guess with the smoking-it sort of clicked and stayed.

Forgive me if I'm off track here, but I think there is far more going on for you than just stopping binge eating...there are deep rooted issues that come into play and you find yourself going round in a loop. It is self-destructive and prevents you seeing the real progress you have made.

You have achieved so much more than being able to stop eating in front of a computer MB. Sorting out the issues with your brother etc...that was HUGE and you walked right through it. My friend, you need to just take a step back and remember what you have done rather than beat yourself up for what you haven't.

I'm sure GT will help you with the AVRT, but I think it might need to be backed up with taking a long hard look at you. Therapy? Meditation? Finding things to do that relax you...apart from the physical fitness stuff I mean...doing things that are just fun rather than productive. Sometimes we need to take care of our mental and spiritual side as well as our physical.

This addiction stuff sucks I know, I'm going through my own little dance with it again too at the moment, but it doesn't change who I am or what I've achieved so far. Yours shouldn't either.

Here for you my friend...sorry for the ramble...it's 6.30 am and on my way out to work xx

MidnightBlue

Thank you, GT for useful input.

But for some reason these words of yours caused resentment in me (or it was AV's resentment).


Why?

First, because I don't believe in "black and white" approach. There are always some undertones. It can be middle of the night here, but it's a wide bright day on the other side of the Earth.

Second, I don't agree that I only "all talk about it". After all I managed to quit sweets and salty snacks using AVRT. And I did make my Big Plan for not beingeing. Actually, it was the first one. I did it, felt it, imagined it.

When I failed, I re-read it, re-felt, re-imagined... Still failed. For some reason this Big Plan didn't reroute my neuron pathways.

Third, I somewhat disagree with the idea that the problem is all about me. No method is absolutely impeccable, neither is a person who is using it.

Don't take me wrong - I am not trying to say that I am doing everything right and there's something wrong with the method. Not at all. But this "black and white" approach claiming that "method is perfect" you are not just doing this" not serving me well. Instead of digging deeper into roots of this it puts blame on me, and that's the last thing what I need. As my friend on the other thread told "MB has a black belt in beating herself up". Yep, I do. And I don't need another reason to beat myself.

I am not just talking. I am trying to fix this "bug" in the system that prevents to apply AVRT successfully to binge eating, as I did in case of sweets and salty snacks.

Again, don't take me wrong. It's not a rant, or as if I want only sugar-coating and refuse to take "tough love".

Actually, your post gave me some kick, but at the same time it arose some kind of "Me to blame again? WTF!".

I hope you will still provide you great input here, GT. And I want you to know that I am extremely grateful to you for your time and being so patient explaining AVRT to me and other people here. But, I think it's ok sometime to disagree? And I just needed to speak my mind).

Jeni - So glad to see you, my friend. You are so right. Now I don't even remember that I've accomplished so much. I don't give myself I single kind word. I just come out with endless reasons to beat myself up. How in the hell can I change this?

See you all pals.

Thank you for your great support!

MidnightBlue

I've just back from running some errands.

I've re-red my previous post now and wonder - why the GT's post hit such a raw nerve on me? Where's AV and where's me in this rant?

I've been shopping for groceries and I ended up without any sugar, any salty snack, any bread...But I don't feel no sense of proud for myself whatsoever, because I did buy some nuts and raisins. I feel like I am going nuts and raisins myself about all this...Like everything I accomplish - it is due to excellence of AVRT. Everything I fail to accomplish - it's pure my fault and my AV is already rubbing its hands: "See, I told you - you can't do this". It reminds me about so many old pattern ingrained in my thinking that I feel sick.

Anyway, off to the gym to give some killing workout to my legs.

P.S. Funny, I've just read the article by Steven Hawking which says something like "There's no "black" in black holes, and they are actually "grey". Lordy, lordy, even the black holes are questioned to be black after all...Never mind)

Riel

Your AV is concerned about the power in the "black and white" characterization. It needs to keep the door open for future relapses.

Your umbrage at GT's post is the part of you that uses AVRT to punish yourself, rather than as a recovery tool. It's more comfortable punishing a bad Midnight, than seeing a good Midnight achieve her goals, and so sides with your AV.

Both are motivated by survival: the AV biological, the sub-personality, social.

AVRT is a good tool to use with the AV, but useless against the sub-personality who is harder, but in a way much easier to deal with because, while she (or he) is more formidable in getting what she wants, she is also amenable to reason, love, kindness, and is herself capable of compassion. You can get her on your side, IOW, whereas your survival drives are hard-wired to want what they want.

MidnightBlue

Thank you for this post Riel...

Today I don't feel like discussing AV. Just need a break. Doesn't mean I am going to binge though.

It's the first time when I post on this thread "looking back" and not feeling like opening up my feelings... And I don't like it... I will probably take some break from posting here to sort my feelings out without overreacting here. But I will surely continue posting at some moment, because "talking all" or not - it helps me. Maybe not in a "pure AVRT sense". But still.

But it's not the point today. For some reason today I didn't feel like overeating since the early morning - my "dangerous time". Usually I am taking my time drinking coffee, etc., because I am usually afraid of what the day is going to bring me. Not today - I don't know exactly what happened, just didn't care. I had no appetite, so I just almost forced myself to finish my breakfast. Wow. For some strange reason neither I felt like checking e-mail, or anything else on my laptop while having breakfast. I actually started, but stopped - it just irritated me. I was sitting there I thinking: "What's the date today? I should remember it. Something changed.".

So, today is February 4. Wait a minute. It's not the first time I remember this date. It's the anniversary of my Mother's death. She passed away nine years ago. February 4, 2005. I remember that day too well.

It's not the first time I forget about the anniversary of my Mother's day either. A few years ago I was stuck at my crazy work till somewhat 10 or 11 p.m. again, scratched the bumper of my car squeezing through a narrow lane with other cars parked all over it, was all f**d up and upset with work. And when I finally got home, the midnight chimed, and another day arrived, I remembered I missed my Mother's death anniversary. I mean, I didn't even remember about that.

I felt so damn guilty back then - what kind of a person I am? Yeah, monster, just a selfish monster. My Mother was right after all.

Chances are today, if not for my struggles with perverted food behaviour, I wouldn't remember about that either. Maybe yes, maybe no.

Today I am not going to the cemetery - I don't feel like doing this. I don't know what to say to my Mother. I don't want to stand their and try to fight back my grudge about what I re-opened during this year of sobriety. About "heritage" I am still dragging on my shoulders.

My therapist told me that at some moment I should say to my Mother and Father "Thank you for giving me life" and move forward. Yes, it's probably the best way. But I am not ready yet.

I don't feel grief today. But I don't feel guilty for not feeling grief either. At least it is not so ruthless, straightforward and "black and white" as it used to be. "You are not grieving on the day of your Mother's Death = You are a bad person".

I have no illusions though - sense of guilt is still somewhere, in more complicated and subtle forms, still kicking and poisoning my life. It's still appears in the form of AV - not so black and white as "to eat or not to eat" - but in disguise. There are still a lot of places to hide for my "emotional AV".

It's not the first time I don't feel like grieving... I used to "force" myself to do that, because I was scared that it feels like ok to me. No, it's not normal. I can't be such a senseless person.

I am "watching" myself today. What do I feel? What do I want to feel? What feeling do I want to push away from myself?

I am not fussing. I am not running. I am not following rituals to keep myself "normal". I am with myself. Scary a little bit. Not, not a little bit - it's scary. But interesting...

See you, pals... Around...

LifeRecovery

Midnight-

I have been thinking about your previous post for a couple of days.

I don't think you are pleased with your "behavior" around your feelings, but I am please that REGARDLESS of what you think....you did not take on the shame onto yourself of your feelings.

My therapist once told me that in recovery we are often a pendulum swinging. We swing from one extreme (where we started) to another....eventually finding a happy middle ground. It is still messy, yucky and hard in that swinging, but it is sign of recovery that we are out of our stuck, hard ways.

So maybe you did not execute like you wanted, but you did change something. Maybe that is what is happening around stuff with your mom too?

You are where you are, you feel what you feel, and you are moving forward with this recovery stuff.....

MidnightBlue

Thank you, LifeRecovery, for your words. And more than that - thank you for thinking about me and my post. It really means a lot.

You've noticed what I've noticed as well - not taking shame on me. And it's a big step for me - not automatically and immediately taking blame and shame, but coming out with something different, even though this different feels so uncomfortable.

Thank you again.

HeadLump

You're making huge strides, MB - you're just too close to see them for what they are

MythOfSisyphus

Hang in there, MB.

MidnightBlue

Hi, pals)

I know we are not counting - but still...It's been 4 months today since I stopped eating sugar. Though my work on binge eating is still work in progress, Big Plan for ending sugar addiction works pretty well.

Thank you all for being here with me)

See you soon.

MidnightBlue

Hi, Pals)

I think it's time to break my silence and get back to violence of the words. Why violence? Just have this song turning on and on in my head

"Words like violence, break the silence,
...Words are very unnecessary..."

Never mind..But it's time to shift from words to actions, anyway...

It's somewhat half past midnight at my part of the world, but I don't want to delay this post for tomorrow.

The last week was fine overall...But I started overeating again on Saturday, proceeded on Sunday, and today's turned into the worst binge since I quit sweets. When I ate frozen potato wedges half-cooked, being too impatient to wait till they are completely ready, I felt like I hit a new bottom...

I emptied almost everything that was in my fridge, and bought myself more.

So, here I am, with disgusting feeling all over.

I've been hesitating though about making the Big Plan again.

As I've already said in my previous post, my very first Big Plan, that I made back in May, was exactly about binge eating. I wrote it, I meant it, I felt it, I imagined my Beast kicking and fighting, and dying hard... And yet, here I am.

So I've been confused - how to make the Big Plan work this time?

But today I'm just tired and sick of overeating, so I've decided to take both advice of AVRT author, and one of my fav writing mentors: "The right time is NOW" and "When is the best time to start" Start BEFORE you are ready".

Yes, I am ready, Beast is not, all is fine...

I've read through AVRT crash course , got my AVRT PhD, and ready to go.

Yes, I am alone in this battle - when AV shows up its head - there's only It and Me.
I am getting great support here, but, after all, when the gong is ringing, and all the supporters and trainers are out of the ring, there's only me and the Beast in our battle.

While I've been thinking about making the Big Plan again today, different metaphors came to my mind.

One was about fairy tales. There are a lot of fairy tales where a heroine has to go through some bewitched forest, where trees are whispering, and stretching out their branches to grasp and straddle her, and monsters of any kind are hiding in the darkness waiting for her to reel backward. But some wise man warned her to never look back, or listen to whispers - just go straight ahead and mind her own business. Something like that.

Fairy tales...It takes to be a grown up to get to their meaning, I think.

Too much talking again? Ok, I'll make it short.

Just another thought.


What is binge? I've been thinking about some definition for it again - how much is binge? Then I told myself: "Ok, stop BSing yourself. No definition is actually necessary. If you are honest with yourself, then have to admit that you ALWAYS KNOW WHEN IT IS BINGE. It doesn't matter how much, it's about how you feel. When you know that you are having this 3 extra dried apricots just because you are delaying some phone call you don't want to make - it's a binge. Binge is not in quantity of food you are eating, it's all about your attitude.

And surely there's no way you can eat that amount just because you are hungry.

If you are having another slice of bread with cheese just because you are terrified to write your article, call a client, whatever.. Sorry, honey, but it is binge. You know all this. You are smart.


I'll make the Big Plan short. I am not repeating what has been already written before.

I will just say that:

- I will NEVER binge again. Yes, you got it right, Beast. Never. N-E-V-E-R. What is never? Oh, I'm sorry, you are stupid. Well, I will consider some bingeing when the last star dies. One thousand light years, OK? You can start counting till then now.

I know most of your masks. I've heard most of your voices. I know - you are such a jerk...

I am no more an actor of your jerk show, Beast.

I am no more a marionette of the animal that is primitive and powerless.

I am free.

And I will NEVER change my mind.


Going to have some sweet dreams now, pals.

See you)

Riel

Potato wedges and bread and cheese...

Just a thought, Midnight, but have you tried changing your diet?

Wheat has gliadin-derived opiates which can lead to craving, binge eating, and withdrawal symptoms, cheese has casomorphins which are similar to morphine and also addictive, though probably not as bad as wheat, and potatoes spike blood sugar which can cause food cravings.

One of the things that makes AVRT more difficult to use with eating disorders than other addictions is that you still have to eat, but it might be easier if you avoided foods that compounded the problem.

MidnightBlue

Thanks for response, Riel.

None of these, actually, is my regular food of choice. I mostly stick to quite healthy nutrition. But when I start a binge, my thinking goes somewhat like "What the heck - I've screwed up anyway, so I'll buy myself something I like".

I've never heard about morphine in cheese. I understand that carbs and bread and potatoes provoke spikes of insuline and cause food cravings. But people have been eating bread and potato since B.C. and no necessarily were suffering from food disorders, I think.

Anyway, you are right that it's better to stay away from some food, at least for some time.

And it's surely more challenging to use AVRT about food, because as you've reasonably noted, you have to eat.

But I am a stubborn girl)

MidnightBlue

Hi, pals.

It's a new day,new morning.

I have no appetite whatsoever after yesterdays' binge, so AV is silent and I am just having coffee.

I will wait till I get hungry for a change)

See you all.