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Old 06-06-2013, 09:45 AM
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Forward from here

GT asked me in another thread if I thought my wife was going to deliver an ultimatum.

An ultimatum such as "If you drink again, you're outta here" maybe 10-15%

She was home last night, so I think if that was where the discussion was going it would have happened already - no waiting.


An ultimatum such as "you need to get professional help (or I'll never believe you're serious)" maybe 50-50.

I don't really want to go, but it may be worth assuaging her. I'll judge from the conversation.

If I determine I have to go, I plan to advocate for a Mindfulness Cognitive Behavior Therapist (MCBT). There are numerous posters here who have a favorable opinion of mindfulness, so I'd like to learn more about it.

Other opinions on the matter? Something other than MCBT? Lifering has a workbook, I think. There are no meetings in my area for any of the major alternatives to AA. I checked.

Despite recent failings I have had more success with AVRT than anything I have ever tried, and I anticipate it will be the cornerstone of my sobriety. I don't expect to find anything better, but I may find something that improves my overall awareness (or whatever I need to fix to maintain my resolve against the beast).
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
GT asked me in another thread if I thought my wife was going to deliver an ultimatum.

An ultimatum such as "If you drink again, you're outta here" maybe 10-15%

She was home last night, so I think if that was where the discussion was going it would have happened already - no waiting.


An ultimatum such as "you need to get professional help (or I'll never believe you're serious)" maybe 50-50.

I don't really want to go, but it may be worth assuaging her. I'll judge from the conversation.

If I determine I have to go, I plan to advocate for a Mindfulness Cognitive Behavior Therapist (MCBT). There are numerous posters here who have a favorable opinion of mindfulness, so I'd like to learn more about it.

Other opinions on the matter? Something other than MCBT? Lifering has a workbook, I think. There are no meetings in my area for any of the major alternatives to AA. I checked.

Despite recent failings I have had more success with AVRT than anything I have ever tried, and I anticipate it will be the cornerstone of my sobriety. I don't expect to find anything better, but I may find something that improves my overall awareness (or whatever I need to fix to maintain my resolve against the beast).
In connection with another of your threads, "resolution dissolution" - I believe, understanding a false Big Plan is best accomplished with RE-COGNIZANCE of an intricately detailed personal forensic analysis of what was going on in your own brain leading up to taking that first drink again. For myself, by doing so, I would not be able to miss the understanding that that alleged Big Plan "resolution" was in fact ripe for "dissolution".

It's basically a simple process of sorting out IT from ME during that time.

Chapters 11-13 in RR:TNC have great info supporting this.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:18 AM
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I've read up some on Life Ring but can give you no personal experience. I think MCBT would be of great value, Non.

I interviewed several therapist before I decided on the one I'm seeing now. I am really pleased with how we interact with each other. He seems to "get" me and I "get" him. I like the one 2 one, face 2 face contact. Drinking does not come up in our discussions however as that is in the past.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
It's basically a simple process of sorting out IT from ME during that time.
How does a post-mortem to separate it from me enhance future resolve?

I mean, it's not like I wasn't aware it was happening. I just stopped caring.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
How does a post-mortem to separate it from me enhance future resolve?

I mean, it's not like I wasn't aware it was happening. I just stopped caring.
The "post-mortem" proves there was no live body (resolve) in the first place. Big Plan resolve does not need to be "cared for". You can't "stop caring" for your Big Plan. There is nothing in the Big Plan to care for. You simply know that you made it. It's done and over with.

Therefore, you can understand that the Big Plan must be something else that you haven't done yet.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
The "post-mortem" proves there was no live body (resolve) in the first place.
If I never had any resolve, then I have no reason to hope, because I felt chock full of resolve when I made my BP back in March.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
If I never had any resolve, then I have no reason to hope, because I felt chock full of resolve when I made my BP back in March.
I think resolve has various quality as well as quantity. The type of resolve behind the Big Plan is that of realizing "Whew!! Now that I made my Big Plan I don't need resolve any more! All I have to do is remember that I made the Big Plan and recognize my Beast and it's AV when it comes along!"
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:04 AM
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A lot of AVRT's usefulness boils down to the fact that PUTTING ALCOHOL IN MY MOUTH is such a precise and IN MY FACE deliberate, conscious behavior, and that NOT DOING IT is totally within my control and NOT DOING IT can be done perfectly, forever.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:14 AM
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I went to treatment, probably saved my life. I was dragged kicking and screaming - you see, I didn't have a problem....just look: I'm a good-looking alpha male who made a lot of money and dated hot chicks. It took treatment, then addiction therapy, and a few months of "me time" to realize how far off my judgement was. Man, I was waaaay in denial.

You seem to be hell-bent on doing this "YOUR WAY" - you control the type of treatment, the type of counciling, and in the end you control whether you go or not.

I hope you are not in denial like I was.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bigsombrero View Post
I hope you are not in denial like I was.
I don't think this is the case with me. I just want to approach this in the most effective manner possible.

I first tried AA about 20 years ago. I made it about 60 days sober, I think. Pure "white knuckles" as they call it. Some great meetings and support (not all, but some), but I just never believed in the 12 steps.

I self-referred to a 2 week outpatient treatment program about 7 years ago, with AA follow up. I think I was sober for about 30 days then.

AVRT (and understanding the duality of addiction) has been more successful for me (even though my addiction had progressed by many years in the interval), so it seems it would be a step in the wrong direction for me to go back to either AA or outpatient treatment. (Both of which my wife has asked me to consider.)

I'm not adamantly opposed to face to face treatment, but I am skeptical. From my reading MCBT seems my best choice for F2F style counseling. I'd certainly approach it with a much better attitude than anything my prior experiences have caused me to lose confidence in.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:42 AM
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Nonsensical, I've related this story of mine before, but it seems apropos here. I wasn't given an ultimatum, but more of an opinion or an analysis. If I were to continue drinking, sooner or later I would lose my marriage, the respect of my children, my home, my job, and then things would start going downhill after that. So, I got to make a choice, then and there.

It didn't feel like an ultimatum, more a statement of fact. It was laid out for me as something I could choose, something within my power to change. I was asked to make that choice. Maybe that is why I continue to see it as a choice, even to this day. There was no 'or else', more a prediction or some third party insight into the near future.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
If I were to continue drinking, sooner or later I would lose my marriage, the respect of my children, my home, my job, and then things would start going downhill after that. So, I got to make a choice, then and there.
I have understood this to be true for me as well, since at least late January. I choose with what feels like an iron will, and some weeks later wake up face down on the carpet again.

If I do the same things I did before I am very likely to get the same result. Some action of mine must be different. I just haven't determined what that is yet.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:27 PM
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instead of outpatient program for alcohol abuse/addiction, have you considered FTF therapy with someone to discuss maybe the reasons why you wake up face down on the carpet/bushes/ floor at times. Approach the problems you are facing from another perspective.

I don't if there is such a thing as "reactive drinking", or the details of your last binge, but it seems they are getting stronger and more harmful....and it starts with one pint? (of beer)? You have resolve and reasoning ability. It wouldn't hurt to seek some help.

I've also exhibited self-destructive behavior and got help to recognize the signs of when and why I do really self-destructive things to myself....and I was able to stop (at least for now)
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:29 PM
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The reason he wakes up on the carpet is simple. He took a first drink, and he is an alcoholic. What he really needs to figure out is why he makes the conscious decision to take the first drink in the first place, knowing full well the consequences.

Not drinking does not mean you are in recovery. It must be more than that. Iron will all you want, but you have to attack the source of your drinking or you are just punching water.

It doesn't matter what treatment program you choose IMHO. If you do not contain within you the personal resolve to beat this thing, any program will fail. Placing importance on a program NOT being of a certain type shows too much attention to detail and desire for control - the problems that have you drinking in the first place. When the program you choose does not go exactly how you wanted it to, you will have a tendency to discard everything because those "quacks" don't know what they are doing.

For me, treatment had more to do with the individuals (addiction counselors, psychologist, and psychiatrist) who intervened in my life when I was at the end of my rope. It was less about the fact that it was a 12-step program and more about the mental health care aspect. It also required that I stash my judgmental mind away in the closet for awhile and just go with the flow and follow what I was told to do without question. This was tough, and I was out of my comfort zone a lot of the time, but beating an addiction is not supposed to be comfortable. Either way, it was more comfortable than the living hell I was in prior to treatment.

You need to figure out for yourself what action must be different. For me, it was treating the underlying anxiety that I was self-medicating with alcohol.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:21 PM
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OK, thus far we've determined that I have no resolve, I don't have the right resolve, I may be in denial, and I desire too much control. (That might be a personal record for character flaws and spiritual defects in a single thread for me.)

So....is an MCBT counselor the right place for me to discuss these issues, or is there something better?
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
OK, thus far we've determined that I have no resolve, I don't have the right resolve, I may be in denial, and I desire too much control.
This sounds pretty much like every alcoholic I've met. Yep, check.

Welcome to the club.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:40 PM
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Personally, I don't think the so-called desire for control has much to do with this sort of drinking; it's more a desire for a lack of control, for oblivion. Not all people with drinking problems come from an alpha-male background in which they have inflated-self-esteems, and think they are invulnerable hot-shots; some come from just the opposite end, and feel, small, vulnerable and have very fragile senses of self, or 'egos', as the psychological term labels one's sense of self.

On that note, I think seeing a MCBT counselor would be helpful, and if you can find a program that uses this approach as well, try that as well, and try as hard as you can.

There's many ways to get at the underlying anxieties that can lead to alcoholism, and I wish you the best of luck as you grow and recover.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by HuskyPup View Post
Personally, I don't think the so-called desire for control has much to do with this sort of drinking; it's more a desire for a lack of control, for oblivion. Not all people with drinking problems come from an alpha-male background in which they have inflated-self-esteems, and think they are invulnerable hot-shots; some come from just the opposite end, and feel, small, vulnerable and have very fragile senses of self, or 'egos', as the psychological term labels one's sense of self.
"Control" in this context is more about control over one's feelings and mental state. Wanting oblivion over being sober is an attempt to exert control. Wanting control over a treatment program is similar in that the OP wants to control/minimize uncomfortable feelings. The point I was trying to make is a certain level (often large amount) of discomfort is necessary for recovery.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:57 PM
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You seem to have taken control of my thread, Mr. Noogan. If I could get it back to get answers to my original questions, it would be much appreciated.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:59 PM
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Non,
as far as your resolve or lack thereof, your situation and your attempts to understand it , or maybe more accurately: tyour attempts to find some sort of framework to fit it in such that it makes sense, such that it makes sense of you to you...i spent years there. by myself in my head.
and some of it of course takes me back to the "moving the ?????????" thread.
i couldn't "solve" this thing logically.
kept getting hung up exactly there:I choose with what feels like an iron will, and some weeks later wake up face down on the carpet again.
how could this be???

you'll need to work through that to a place that makes sense to you; for me, i had to come to accept that my supposed free choice was compromised by alcoholism; that this was part and parcel of that condition for me.
but it took a long time to get there, and may not be what's so for you.
in any case: the LifeRing workbook "Recovery by Choice" i found to be an excellent tool for exploring myself in relationship with alcohol, and all things i thought peripheral which really aren't

you can use it in conjunction with each and every and ANY way of quitting and staying quit.
you can find and order it via The LifeRing Home Page | Sobriety, Secularity, Self-Help
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