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Old 06-06-2013, 03:02 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Well, to this extent, it's a human and animal characteristic to seek comfort and avoid pain, this idea dates back as early as Freud's 'Pleasure Principle', and has been widely expanded upon since. So I agree, the desire to have a kind of control to blot out pain/negative emotions is an issue, and needs to be addressed. But I don't think one needs to surrender the idea of having a healthy degree of agency and control in one's decisions and recovery process. In the step groups, I see a lot of this do as you are told and say nothing approach: and I have seen that clearly, it doesn't help a large number of people.

As this is the secular section, it seems odd to be dwelling on this concept with such vigor...perhaps if the OP were to follow the advice of a Cognitive approach, it would be just as well, but they don't place as much emphasis on just following orders, and never asking questions, and often yield good results.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:10 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
i had to come to accept that my supposed free choice was compromised by alcoholism; that this was part and parcel of that condition for me.
I think this aptly fits with my perspective. Or maybe more like, 'at times I choose not to have free choice and let the alcoholic run free'. If that makes sense. That's only been true since early Feb, though, when I learned there's a difference between ME and IT. (Before then I was just trying to stop the bickering voices in my head, still believing some form of moderation was possible, etc.)

I'll give the Life Ring book a try. Thanks.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:13 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
You seem to have taken control of my thread, Mr. Noogan. If I could get it back to get answers to my original questions, it would be much appreciated.
You mean these questions? They were the only ones asked:

Other opinions on the matter? Something other than MCBT?
I believe I stayed on topic. I would reference my original post and the subsequent replies that clarified it for those who had difficulty understanding.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:19 PM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Congratulations, I don't think you can possibly be any more right in a single thread. Please, spread the wealth.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:40 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Forgive me if I am off topic but I’d like to add just one thought. It’s my belief that most often, the primary motivation for a drink is that the individual is attempting to change how they feel. Forgive me for stating what might appear obvious, but that’s the bottom line. The problem then becomes how to deal with the feeling(s), and to do so without alcohol. Each recovery method or program (even personal ones that are an amalgam of different methods) have some way of doing this, albeit via widely different methods. Sometimes the method is solely rational and individually based and sometimes it is not. Different methods are suited to different individuals.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:54 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Have you had any experience with MCBT, awuh1?
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:19 PM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
OK, thus far we've determined that I have no resolve, I don't have the right resolve, I may be in denial, and I desire too much control. (That might be a personal record for character flaws and spiritual defects in a single thread for me.)

So....is an MCBT counselor the right place for me to discuss these issues, or is there something better?
I think you should try whatever you feel comfortable with and want to work at.
I don't have any experience with the above, but if YOU want to attend, that is the most important factor. i do think the books i saw when googling about it sound very interesting and if i were in a place where i needed them, I would also try it.

for the record, I don't see any more character flaws or defects than anyone else who posts. I have hope that this new counselor will help and you will feel better, quit drinking and enjoy your life.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:35 PM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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I have a long familiarity with CBT (nearly since its inception) but less with the mindfulness side of this technique (and none when systematically used in combination). I would also like to hear more from people who have used it. It seems like it could be a very useful tool.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:38 PM
  # 29 (permalink)  
 
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Make a choice while you still can. It is very unfun to get to the point where legal choices are made for you. Waving my arms around screaming "you need to release me immediately" with my assless gown flapping open was not my best moment. I never in a million years thought that could happen to me. Never.

Fortunately my children weren't taken from me. I was able to rebuild my relationship with them, I was able to get my job back, but my marriage did not make it. Don't lose Mrs.Non.

I would suggest re-reading RR cover to cover. Then read it again.

I used f2f therapy with a cognitive/behavioral focus to get some other sh*t straight after I quit.

You can do this Non. You can and you will.
Xo
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:44 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Don't lose Mrs.Non.
I'm safe for now. Planning to keep it that way. Glad to get help from the smart people here.

What have you got on mindfulness? I think I've read you mentioning it before. Where can I learn more? I want more tools in my toolbox.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:37 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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If I determine I have to go....I self-referred to a 2 week outpatient treatment program...I choose with what feels like an iron will.....From my reading MCBT seems my best choice

Sounds like the reason you want MCBT is because you get to remain in control - you're making the choice and you can schedule the appointments. When I went to inpatient, we could not leave the facility. We could not have a cell phone. We had to go to breakfast at 6am. We had lectures at 7:30, group at 9, lunch at 11, group at 1pm, free time and exercise, and then dinner/lecture at 6. Every damn day for 21 days. Sounds crappy eh? Trust me, it sucked - but it was just what I needed. I am a very independent guy and loathed the thought of it, but that's precisely why it worked for me. I'm not trying to hijack your thread or dodge your questions. You ask if MCBT is your best option? I think the best option might be in a place where you have to surrender everything and work your ass off to be a part of a team. You might find success if you can try and give up control of the steering wheel on this one.

PS - I speak in a sharp tone because you're a pretty realistic guy and you seem to want to hear the straight truth. I am sorry if I'm coming off as a meanie, I am just giving my honest opinion. I also realize that regardless of your approach, you are doing your best to beat this thing, I sincerely admire your thoughtfulness.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:15 PM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Wow. Awesome thread. Just awesome. Thank you. The control thing mentioned is HUGE for me. I definitely have control issues. In my mind I have made it successfully through ALOT, our lives have prospered from it. In my mind WTH cant I control alcohol. In my mind I CAN, but I've not chosen to yet. I will the next Monday, or the next week, month etc. Alcoholism is just this pesky little mosquito that you always try to squash and miss, then try again, and again.

A lot of in your face in this thread. I take so much more from hearing it from those who've walked before me. My family is all about sending me to Cali, Florida or some nice resort rehab. I WON'T go and I REALLY feel I do not need that. Binge drinking for a night or a weekend is my thing. But reading this thread makes me see that is all about ME being in control. I'm not going to go away for 30 days. Firstly because I don't feel I'm as bad as some, secondly because I wouldn't be in "control".

Sorry to hijack NON, but ALOT of valid points here! So many angles and approaches to take here in recovery. AA is NOT for me, due to the powerless issue. But you could pick and choose the others, give it a try and fail because they're bs (in my mind and my beast speaking). Then move on to the next and give your family hopes of THAT program. Fail again, rinse and repeat...
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:54 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
 
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I have been reading about Buddhism and mindfulness since I quit 6 years ago. I've read Hanh, Chodron, the Dalai Lama, Rahula, Tolle. I've read countless articles. I got on google and beat it up like it owed me money

I was surprised at how AVRT is essentially mindfulness, in that you are aware of the thoughts/cravings/desires (beast/AV), but you are separate from them, an observer. The YOU/IT split is very effective, and thousands of years old btw. The Buddhists (and many other religions/philosophies) have used this kind of separating from hindrances, this non-grasping, since like forever. I also like the concepts of self-reliance, yet interconnectedness....and of striving for equanimity, maintaining balance despite whatever else is going on around me. That same idea translates to me with drinking...it's always no, no matter what. Never an option.

ps you do not need to continue to focus on past drinking as an indicator of future failure. This is a new day and this day is separate from all other days that have passed.

Can you imagine if I had told my toddler sons when they were potty training, "well, you have been going in your diaper for 3 years now, so I'm sure you won't be able to use the potty." One day it became necessary for them not to ever pee their pants again, regardless of how many times they had done it before. There was a day for each of them that they used the potty, and never looked back Weird analogy I know...lol it's late here.

You have the RR book right?
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:02 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by awuh1
It’s my belief that most often, the primary motivation for a drink is that the individual is attempting to change how they feel. Forgive me for stating what might appear obvious, but that’s the bottom line. The problem then becomes how to deal with the feeling(s), and to do so without alcohol.
Or the primary motivation could be to get drunk. Life could be grand and one may not want to change a thing, nothing to run from, nothing to numb, but maybe they want to ramp it up from great to greater by getting a buzz on, but there's a problem with the off switch.

So my off switch is broken, defective, or simply not there. I don't care why really. I mean it might be interesting as a bit of trivia, but it doesn't really matter why when it comes to drinking, what matters is that drinking is bad for me and for those I love and who love me back. period.
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:27 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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SL if “getting drunk” did not change how we felt; my bet is that we would not have bothered with alcohol at all. What would be the point? It’s the same thing with feeling good and wanting to feel better. It’s again the case of wanting to change how we feel . If not, then why not have a 7-up?

The logical choice after the first bit of drunken trouble would be to give it up. We did not. Nope, we drank for effect, and most of us did this over and over again despite all the consequences.

I think the OP is already quite aware that drinking is bad for him and for those he loves (in fact he has been very forthcoming about this today here on SR) . He also knows the “off switch” is broken. What he is seeking to get a grip on are the causes and conditions of his drinking, and I think rightly so.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:09 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
What he is seeking to get a grip on are the causes and conditions of his drinking, and I think rightly so.
Or, rather, how I can know for 30, 40, 50 days that it's utterly, absolutely WRONG for me to ever have any alcohol; be resolved to never, ever have another drop; and then wake up on day 31, 41, 51 and not care. Like I forgot.

That's why I think mindfulness might be helpful.

Although this morning making another Big Plan is appealing. The terrifying aspect of that is if I break it the feeling of hopelessness is hugely magnified (for me and my family) - and I know this from personal experience.

Had a nice conversation with my wife. Sorry to disappoint some of you, but she's not having me locked up. No ultimatums. I'm keeping the thought of MCBT counseling on the table, but I'll probably do some reading on mindfulness first.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:27 AM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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there is no law against taking your time to decide what works best.
You are waking up sober and feeling better, you are not going to dwell on drinking today.
That sounds like a pretty good way to start the weekend.
the only plan I concern myself with is what is helpful to me every day, it changes frequently because there are so many weird things happening with my life. i have to be flexible and adapt...but i do stay sober.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:43 AM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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Thanks, Fandy, I always appreciate your supportive words and kindness.

I AM feeling better today. I got a full 6 hours of quality sleep. My body is feeling better. My wife is home and smells fantastic. It's raining cats and dogs outside, but I feel very sunny on the inside.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:18 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Or maybe more like, 'at times I choose not to have free choice and let the alcoholic run free'. If that makes sense.

it makes sense to me in as far as i put it that way too, for a long while.
yet, still i kept running into why i'd choose this when i didn't want to. when i'd chosen the very opposite.
and i did start these years of sobriety pretty much from that stance.

later, i grappled with the whole thing again, after a year or two sober.
but none of my later conclusions about my choice, control, agency, power, about me and my drinking decades is relevant here.
and as Husky says, none of that relates to the fact that we have choices about what actions to take with regards to quitting and staying quit.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:28 AM
  # 40 (permalink)  
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Firstly because I don't feel I'm as bad as some, secondly because I wouldn't be in "control".

Magrich,
yeah, there are ALWAYS people to be found who are BADDER than me and you.
no doubt about it.
i'm so glad i got away from the mindset where i was waiting to be just as bad as the "worst" before i quit. where that seemed so often like the proper attitude towards this thing and myself.
binge drinking, binge-anything, is not control
the opposite.
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