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Old 05-29-2013, 08:45 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
... the point i wanted to talk about is the circularity of the response to relapse: if you drink again after having made a big plan, then you did not really make a real big plan.
the retrospective that insists it knows better than the person going through the experience.
the re-writing that says: you only THOUGHT you mad a big plan. the fact that you drank again shows that you didn't. because it's impossible to...."
You earlier said the OP was about what is the correct AVRT response to relapse, and now you're saying it is to prove that response is circular.

I would think circularity would be the rule of the day if the Big Plan COULD be made over and over again, which appears to be the opposite of what you are trying to suggest.

AVRT, on the other hand, is a linear learning process. People get better and better at it, decide to make the once in a lifetime Big Plan, and get on with life. No circularity there. It is the Beast that would love to make AVRT circular. Why? I think, partly because appetites by definition are all cyclical (or circular, if you will). From the immediate regularity of wanting oxygen about ten times a minute to wanting sex once a (fill in the blank) on average, with food, sleep, touch, elimination, and booze all in between. But the unnecessary dependent appetite for booze is simply a healthy drive misdirected, and AVRT gets rid of it with the human part of you understanding the never-ending cyclical force of the Beast, and you using that part of you that knows time is actually a linear process, in which you can make a short decision that will last forever. Quite important, I think.

The "dissecting" the AV out from the feelings and thoughts occurring before that first drink simply help the AVRT learning process and help the addicted person see how that alleged Big Plan wasn't really the Big Plan of AVRT. The Beast would love to have you jump into something like the Big Plan without serious thought. Well, it's not disastrous if you do and then drink again, but it can be very useful AVRT to retrace what happened to prove to yourself that you really didn't make the AVRT Big Plan, because that plan renders you incapable of voluntarily swallowing alcohol.

This reminds me of a funny idea I once had. A long time ago, when I wondered what I might do if someone were to persistently offer me a drink at some occasion, I thought of finally taking the drink and saying "I'm really not sure I can do this." and then carefully lifting the drink to my mouth and beginning to pour it, but then suddenly missing my mouth and pouring it down the side of my cheek and all over my clothes and saying, "Oh, rats. You know, if you really want, I can try again. What do you say?" :rotfxko

I think it's these conversations about people inadvertently allowing their Beast, AND our society's collective Addictive Voice, to get in the way of their understanding the important singularity of an oath about never drinking again that prompt me to these memories.

I guess I could ask this question. Can you imagine a Big Plan that could only be made once? I say I have one. Of course, I don't expect you to believe me, but do you think it could be true that it is impossible for me to drink again?
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Making a big plan is part of the Addictive Voice Recognition Technique...so without being able to identify and separate from the AV (The R of AVRT), my big plan wouldn't really be a big plan.
I made a Big Plan for booze and drugs decades ago, and for sweets last June 7, right here on SR.

Because of my booze and drugs Big Plan I'm convinced that it is the Big Plan that rules over the distant future of a teetotaler's abstinence. The Beast is still there, and can be amazingly amorphous in pseudo-intellectual ways, but the habit is long broken and abstinence has itself become a habit - a reflex to refuse drinks.

I don't even have to think about whether the BP was a rational or irrational decision. I accepted long ago that I do not have the capacity to change it.

Because of my sweets Big Plan last year, I experienced how forceful the Big Plan was at assisting me in separating from my Beast. It was almost like using luminol and UV light on a bloody crime scene. The Beast's old desires glaringly popped out in contrast to my new ultimate promise. And I felt great that I made that irreversible move. It was a relief. And I know and love how it has changed my life for the better. I don't mind at all, but I do recognize IT, when I sip water at a table with others downing Death by Chocolate and Key Lime Pie. The missing something is all so trivial, now.
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:54 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Received View Post
I'm curious, fini. What exactly is it that you "figured out"?

Apparently you have not drank for some time and yet I don't remember you ever posting about what YOU did or didn't do. Of course you may have posted something a long time ago but it might be helpful if you catch us "newcomers" up to date. I would think if you've been successful with quitting alcohol and staying quit others may benefit from your knowledge.

Constantly questioning other members and their decisions and methods or programs is fine, I guess. It would however be nice if you share your experience and therefore knowledge with us.
let me add something to my prior response to this, Received:

the stuff i figured out was/is true for me, and what i figured out, the conclusions i came to about myself, are useless to someone else. it wouldn't help anyone, no matter what the "knowledge" is. though it's invaluable to me, of course.

what might be useful to others is the process i went through to get there; a process of doggedly pursuing questions to myself. questions such as i mentioned above: if i had free choice, what would make me/why would i choose repeatedly to go back to drinking when in fact i desperately wanted to be done with it? when i say i doggedly pursued things like this, i'm talking about YEARS, Received.
when i say in "the beast is very very angry"thread that i did/do not attempt to silence "the voice", that in fact i invite it to tell me more, i mean just that.
this kind of stuff is what i did and didn't do. and anyone is free to question me about that, and what i did or didn't do i freely share in various threads as the conversation seems appropriate to what i might be able to contribute.

my thinking is that the real value of that kind of questioning is in whatever each one finds out to be true for themselves.
so my conclusions about myself are entirely irrelevant to this thread, or to anyone else, really.

it was/is a matter of working at the tough questions for myself, luckily with others, to understand the "deeeep down truth" of who i am.
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:27 AM
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Believing something to be possible or impossible is wholly different then something actually being itself existing as possible or impossible for others.

For me, possible and impossible require conditionals to define the parameters respectively. Without conditions to preclude one over the other, neither can exist as truth. In fact, without conditions, both possible and impossible can only exist together in falseness.

Those requisite conditions can only be discovered and realised from a relative point of observance to either true existing state. Therefore, whatever is possible or impossible respectively is defined by the limits of one's capacity to experience relative observance of whatever.

lol
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine
I experienced how forceful the Big Plan was at assisting me in separating from my Beast.
What if you don't know there is a beast?
Originally Posted by GerandTwine
Because of my booze and drugs Big Plan I'm convinced that it is the Big Plan that rules over the distant future of a teetotaler's abstinence. The Beast is still there, and can be amazingly amorphous in pseudo-intellectual ways, but the habit is long broken and abstinence has itself become a habit - a reflex to refuse drinks.
Agreed. The same is true for me now. However, I do think that the BP and the R-ing of the AV go hand in hand. That is why people often say "well I said I'll never drink again a million times! So making that kind of declaration doesn't work!" I believe that's because making a declaration alone is somewhat different from making a declaration with the understanding that it may "try to getcha" at times but you know that and you know what to do when that happens.

A big plan with no knowledge of or separation from the beast is like a parachute with no ripcord. It has the potential to work, but potential is nothing without correct mechanics.

ps sidenote don't you feel amazing not all clogged with sugar?! I love it!
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:37 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
my thinking is that the real value of that kind of questioning is in whatever each one finds out to be true for themselves.
so my conclusions about myself are entirely irrelevant to this thread, or to anyone else, really.

it was/is a matter of working at the tough questions for myself, luckily with others, to understand the "deeeep down truth" of who i am.
But then would that not be true of everyone? Are we not allowed to also work at tough questions, with others, to understand the "deeeep down truth" to "that kind of questioning"? Is it that we are excluded from sharing our conclusions about ourselves, our understandings with others? Our experiences?

You have posted numerous times on other threads about your need/desire to have a deeper understanding of others, " to understand how people see it" Should we (I) not be afforded the same opportunity without being told "if it doesn't suit you. please ignore"?

The topic of this thread seems to be changing which is not unusual on a message board such as this, in my experience. Originally it seemed to me you were questioning AVRT and how one should think, feel or respond to a relapse after making a BP. It now seems to have evolved into a statement about AVRT and the response to relapse is circular. I think G&T said it best, when they posted:

You earlier said the OP was about what is the correct AVRT response to relapse, and now you're saying it is to prove that response is circular.
I would like to think that we all are allowed to share equally rather then being told what may and may not be shared on a particular thread (as long as SR guidelines are followed) and again, not be told "if it doesn't suit you. please ignore". There are members on this board who's lives may very well depend on it.

ETA: I do very much appreciate you sharing your personal experience.
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
What if you don't know there is a beast?
Agreed. The same is true for me now. However, I do think that the BP and the R-ing of the AV go hand in hand. That is why people often say "well I said I'll never drink again a million times! So making that kind of declaration doesn't work!" I believe that's because making a declaration alone is somewhat different from making a declaration with the understanding that it may "try to getcha" at times but you know that and you know what to do when that happens.

A big plan with no knowledge of or separation from the beast is like a parachute with no ripcord. It has the potential to work, but potential is nothing without correct mechanics.

ps sidenote don't you feel amazing not all clogged with sugar?! I love it!
This is a great way of putting it, soberlicious.

(your sidenote even has me giving my Pepsi the hairy eyeball)
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:29 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
What if you don't know there is a beast?

ps sidenote don't you feel amazing not all clogged with sugar?! I love it!
In the 1800's when people made their version of the Big Plan, they most often made it a more public declaration and would often frame their signed pledge and hang it on the wall or keep it in the front of their bible. This visibility probably increased to motivation to resist the desire.

They also resisted the old habit by considering it all kinds of things like the force of the devil, sin, their sinful nature. The WCTU added "God helping me" to their pledge in the 1870's.

Ah yes, sugar-free has a much deeper meaning for me.
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Old 05-29-2013, 02:14 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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You earlier said the OP was about what is the correct AVRT response to relapse,
oh..oh no, that's not what i said. if it came across that way, then it explains some of the difficulties herenow.
if it came across that way, either i mis-stated or you misunderstood.

mmm...just re-read the OP.
no, wasn't asking anything about the correct AVRT response

it's okay.
i give up.

and yues, i believe not only it's possible you will never drink again, but it's more than likely.
and highly unlikely i'll ever drink again, too.

can i envision a plan to never drink again? of course.


can you accept that in this conversation i do not wish to have AVRT explained to me in general, and that i have always freely said i dio not use it and see its general usefulness but no need or desire to alter what works for me already?
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Old 05-29-2013, 02:39 PM
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But then would that not be true of everyone? Are we not allowed to also work at tough questions, with others, to understand the "deeeep down truth" to "that kind of questioning"? Is it that we are excluded from sharing our conclusions about ourselves, our understandings with others? Our experiences?

oh yes, i very much think it's true for everyone. which is why i attempt to encourage people to dig deeper, keep looking, keep asking. if i didn't experience engaging with ????? as beneficial, i wouldn't be doing it so much
and yes, of course we share our conclusions about ourselves.no-one is excluded from that.
but i had understood you to be asking me to talk here about what i figured out about myself, and this thread has a specific topic, which, sigh, it seems only one or two people have understood in the way i mean it.

so my response to your previous post comes from thinking that in relation to this thread, or to any questions i might ask, whether i believe myself to be in charge, to have control, to be powerless, to be an alcoholic, to be no such thing but just have had a bad habit, to ....none of these things that i might have concluded about myself would pertain to me asking about the AVRT response i see to people who have done the impossible: relapsed after having a BP.

and no, i haven't changed my original topic. not one bit. GT did not capture what i'm asking.
and of course i want people to share. it's why i asked.


i didn't ask you to ignore the thread because i don't want to hear your thoughts, but because your post seemed to imply that i was constantly questioning other people and their methods and that it seemed unbalanced with what you perceived as a non-sharing of what i myself did/do or didn't do.hope that clears everything up.
except that i really do not know how to better explain what my OP is about.

double sigh.
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fini
can you accept that in this conversation i do not wish to have AVRT explained to me in general,
I guess you could just ignore those posts that explain AVRT...
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
and yues, i believe not only it's possible you will never drink again, but it's more than likely.
and highly unlikely i'll ever drink again, too.

can i envision a plan to never drink again? of course.

can you accept that in this conversation i do not wish to have AVRT explained to me in general, and that i have always freely said i dio not use it and see its general usefulness but no need or desire to alter what works for me already?
Sure, but in our AV laden recovery world, I have difficulty giving specific AVRT answers without including some general context because AVRT is so revolutionary to the status quo.

Also, I have total confidence that you could easily make it "absolutely certain" that you will never drink again, just as I and millions of others have done.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:09 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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sigh.
let me try and recap, at least just for myself, since this went so...uh....not the way i wanted it to.
"You earlier said the OP was about what is the correct AVRT response to relapse, and now you're saying it is to prove that response is circular."
i was neither interested in "the correct AVRT response" nor to "prove" anything.
i was struck by what looks like the similarity of the response to relapse on the 12-step boards and on the AVRT threads, and how those responses are similar in the way that they both seem to say this: if you are working our method right, this will not happen. the fact that this happened proves that you did not work the method properly. no matter what you say about how you "worked" it, you couldn't have done it right.

but no matter.
the thread has opened up some other interesting topics.
maybe they'll be pursued other places.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:50 AM
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if you are working our method right, this will not happen. the fact that this happened proves that you did not work the method properly. no matter what you say about how you "worked" it, you couldn't have done it right.
I do believe this. Regardless of what a person does to quit, if their goal is abstinence and they drink again, they have not met their goal. They did not "do it right". Something somewhere went wrong. I don't see how else to look at it. It's not a judgement on that person or the method, it's simply a fact. There was an obvious glitch. Since a method is a thing to be applied, it's not the method that "works" per se, but the person that works to apply the method. So, for me the key is, what will I do to ensure meeting my goal?
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
if you are working our method right, this will not happen. the fact that this happened proves that you did not work the method properly. no matter what you say about how you "worked" it, you couldn't have done it right.

I don’t believe this. The assumption here is that a method will always work if “done right”. There are different wrenches because there are different nuts. To automatically blame the wrench for not working is just as silly as to automatically blame the individual for not using it correctly.
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Old 05-30-2013, 01:46 PM
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It's not about "blame". That's silly.
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Old 05-30-2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
Quote:
if you are working our method right, this will not happen. the fact that this happened proves that you did not work the method properly. no matter what you say about how you "worked" it, you couldn't have done it right.

I don’t believe this. The assumption here is that a method will always work if “done right”. There are different wrenches because there are different nuts. To automatically blame the wrench for not working is just as silly as to automatically blame the individual for not using it correctly.

The assumption here is that a method will always work if “done right”.



exactly.
yes. and that's given as part of the message.
"it works if you work it", and "if you have a BP, it is impossible to drink again voluntarily".
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Old 05-30-2013, 02:37 PM
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Your right soberlicious it's not (but somehow I think you already knew that). It's about finding what works. In order to do that it's necessary for many folks to find what does not work.

I have no trouble criticizing individuals who automatically find fault with a person applying a given program/method that they deem to be incapable of failing. This can, in fact, be harmful to the individual who is the object of this faulty assumption.

I think this is part of what fini is getting at.
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Old 05-30-2013, 02:38 PM
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Regardless of what a person does to quit, if their goal is abstinence and they drink again, they have not met their goal.


yes, of course.

Since a method is a thing to be applied, it's not the method that "works" per se, but the person that works to apply the method.

ah, this is where the snag is for me. the method might have flaws. and a person might apply a flawed method wholeheartedly with everything they've got, and still "fail".
but that is also not the point of my OP. because i'm not talking about ways to get and stay sober. as i keep repeating (yes i do oh yes i do repeat repeat repeat it, lol)


as a more personal aside, my belief is that people can get sober different ways, by different "methods", or by no method whatsoever. i've seen enough examples to know that's so.
but these are all other interesting conversations, though not addressing the original topic.

as another aside, your question "what if a person doesn't know they have a Beast?" led me to wonder what "the correct AVRT answer" is to THIS question: what if a person is an alcoholic and has no Beast?

tongue in cheek. mostly.
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Old 05-30-2013, 02:46 PM
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"if you are working our method right, this will not happen. the fact that this happened proves that you did not work the method properly. no matter what you say about how you "worked" it, you couldn't have done it right."


The above statement has undefined general use terms when erroneously applied to individuals. Successfully quitting drinking is an individual enterprise requiring the complete individual. The general terms are not relative to individuals but only to the general "you"

"you"
"working"
"properly"
"fact"
"proves"
"couldn't"
"right"


The entire statement falls apart since none of the words being used are being defined with those "you" individuals", and this then makes the statement meaningless for individuals.
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