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Old 05-28-2013, 01:07 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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"Well, now that we've come to a pause in the tautology part" ... perhaps it would be more apt to say that we have come full circle.

"it is impossible for a person to drink voluntarily after making a Big Plan". Is there any scientific evidence that you can point to which supports this statement? Have you adopted this statement as a matter of faith? I have only the personal experiences of a variety of individuals posting here on SR to go on. Some of which tends to support this claim, but some of which does not (including that of the OP).
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:07 AM
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Just want to jump in with my experience when I have attempted to utilise the concept of the Big Plan.
Last year I made a BP but drank again after 5 weeks sobriety. I spent the next year trying to quit again but perversely found it impossible to gather the momentum and resolve to say to myself 'This time I'm not changing my mind'. l felt so depressed after my BP turned out to be no better than the usual hungover morning thoughts of 'Never again' that I think it was actually counter-productive to quitting. Making another BP (which in my mind is a logical contradiction) didn't seem possible. Moreover to try to do this was in a way like setting myself up for failure because after all I had said the same previously and look how that turned out. fini has discussed this exact problem on previous threads.
I've quit again but it feels different than last year and even earlier this year when I stopped for a while but couldn't bring myself to mentally even go there with a BP. My problem is that the BP felt like a separate formula that, if I had applied it correctly, would result in perfect sobriety. Now I feel that in my case, the plan, big or otherwise, must originate from within. It must be completely integrated with other aspects of my life and what my goals are. It must be holistic. This is where I do like Robby Robot - I take what I want from AVRT and leave the rest!!
If the BP means something to me now it is more like the moment of unveiling or realisation, that epiphany when what you must do (ie quit alcohol) is for once and for all known and understood. That is indeed a point of no return in addiction I believe and hugely momentous. But in of itself it does not guarantee sobriety.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Well, now that we've come to a pause in the tautology part, maybe we could pick up this part. Does anyone have such a detailed chronology they'd be willing to post? The important time is before the first swallow.
GT,

this was from your response to my initial question.
and i said i felt unheard.
the reason for that relates to this: even though i spoke of my own experience in one paragraph in my initial post, the thread i started was not about my experience.
my OP is about the AVRT response to relapse (yes, i know, Trimpey says there is no relapse after a BP).
i did not engage with you about the above because i did not wish to have an AVRT analysis of my past drinking episodes, nor did i wish to dissect how i felt specifically just before i took a drink.
it's not what my point for this thread was AT ALL.

in any case, the important time for me was not before the first swallow. it was long before that.
if i were to ever drink again, the important time would not be the moment before the first swallow. that's not when something would be going awry. things would be "wrong" long before that.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:16 AM
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No, I didn't address it because it is impossible for a person to drink voluntarily after making a Big Plan. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear enough.


the Trimpey quote makes that clear. and you've made your agreement with that clear in various statements.
this is why i started the thread: by extension it implies: if you drink again, then, therefore, you had not made a BP.
and if the concept of "you cannot lie to yourself" contradicts your own experience of being sure you made a BP, yet you drank again, one seems left with this: either you DID lie to yourself (or i could soften it and say "you fooled yourself") or since you did drink again, uh...there WAS no "proper" BP, which is the same thing.

what this doesn't address is the person who genuinely made the BP and then drank again. the answer given to that is: IMPOSSIBLE.

which is no answer at all.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:33 PM
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To a degree all our actions are chosen by us. I'm trying to get that point across but perhaps I'm being misunderstood.

The most important thing for me to take away from AVRT is that so far the technique has allowed my to completely stop participating in a behavior that was killing me. The author of the system has acknowledged that there are occasionally people so "bad off" that they require more than just the lite web version. For that small sub-set he does live counseling.

The point I was trying to get across is that where AA might say you're powerless and need to give your burden to God, AVRT might say it was your own choice all along. That's a new and powerful message to someone that's spent 30 years believing recoveryism was the only alternative to alcoholism.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:05 PM
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MoS,

i'm glad AVRT is a powerful new tool for you, and i'd not dispute that whatsoever.
i can see its value and usefulness in dealing with the AV.

i have no quarrel with the technique, nor did i start this thread to quarrel about what works for anyone.

i was/am interested in looking at the responses from AA and AVRT to a return to drinking.
it struck me that the responses are ultimately the same:" the "method" is foolproof, YOU screwed up. YOU screwed up because we set the parameters such that we say it's not possible to "fail"."

that's it.
that's all i attempted to converse about.

on a more personal note, for myself i spent a lot of drinking and sober time "knowing" that i had had choice and control and wondering, ultimately, why, then, i'd repeatedly make a stuuuuupid choice such as going back to drinking? how to explain that one to myself???? was i seriously insane? what sane person would keep making such a choice a gazillion times???

yep, hung out there for a long time. til i figutred it out for my own satisfaction, with a lot of others who were willing and interested in having months of conversations about it.
veryu very lucky to have had that, and grateful to this day.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:16 PM
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i was/am interested in looking at the responses from AA and AVRT to a return to drinking.
it struck me that the responses are ultimately the same:" the "method" is foolproof, YOU screwed up. YOU screwed up because we set the parameters such that we say it's not possible to "fail".
Well if by "the same" you mean like "all dogs have four legs, therefore they are the same", well...yes and no obviously.

Method aside, if my goal is to quit drinking and I drink again then...yeah, I screwed up. I'm no brain surgeon, but that one is pretty clear to me.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:34 PM
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I'm curious, fini. What exactly is it that you "figured out"?

Apparently you have not drank for some time and yet I don't remember you ever posting about what YOU did or didn't do. Of course you may have posted something a long time ago but it might be helpful if you catch us "newcomers" up to date. I would think if you've been successful with quitting alcohol and staying quit others may benefit from your knowledge.

Constantly questioning other members and their decisions and methods or programs is fine, I guess. It would however be nice if you share your experience and therefore knowledge with us.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
"Well, now that we've come to a pause in the tautology part" ... perhaps it would be more apt to say that we have come full circle.

"it is impossible for a person to drink voluntarily after making a Big Plan". Is there any scientific evidence that you can point to which supports this statement? Have you adopted this statement as a matter of faith? I have only the personal experiences of a variety of individuals posting here on SR to go on. Some of which tends to support this claim, but some of which does not (including that of the OP).
I guess I'll need your help on this. Is it science or faith to determine that "I will never ..." is equivalent to "It is impossible for me to voluntarily ..."?
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:29 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
...my OP is about the AVRT response to relapse (yes, i know, Trimpey says there is no relapse after a BP).
i did not wish to have an AVRT analysis of my past drinking episodes, nor did i wish to dissect how i felt specifically just before i took a drink.
it's not what my point for this thread was AT ALL....
If you have an interest in quitting for good and then drink again, it just so happens that the T of R'ing your AV DOES involve Re-cognizance of your AV leading up to that first drink. And, yes, the Technique does involve "dissecting" the AV out of your thoughts and feelings all the way back to when you first recall having the idea of "screw it, do it".

So, I'm sorry that it turns out that the point of your thread just happens to be what you are trying to avoid. I'm not suggesting you failed at all, just that you are choosing not to use AVRT.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:50 PM
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I'm a very simple person so I don't want to sound trite but here's my take on it: I would like a pound for every time I've said never, ever again. This is not because I'm weak. This is not because I didn't mean it at the time. At the time I really, really, deep down from the bottom of my heart, from my innermost soul do not ever want to drink again. But, that inner strength (call it what you will) somehow, dissipates!. It's a bit like being on a diet. Everyone knows we can lose weight, stop eating cake, stop eating foods we like, but only for so long, then we cave in, that inner resolve dies, it weakens, then we are back on the same old again. That's why nearly everyone is overweight. I've come to the conclusion (for me) I like the initial first drink or two, that nice easy feeling with the world, that everything in the world is just fine, an inner glow, everyone is lovely, all my friends are beautiful, the cares of the day dissipate into thin air and I feel calm, confident, witty, charming, attractive even. But. Another glass and we are past that and it's all downhill from then on. So. If I could just stick to one or two glasses, absolutely NO MORE then I would be fine. Perfection. Or one cake a week etc, no excess weight gain, but we can't so we are forever vigilant, forever on a diet. So if I can't go into the pub without first knowing I won't drink, then I won't go. But, because I'm only human it's hard. I don't know any more than that and I've been alive for a little while now. But, with time it does get easier, especially when I wake up feeling good, not great any more, but better, much, much better that the alternative which is the nearest thing to hell that I can imagine. X
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:25 PM
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Lilly, you point out something interesting, and it's the reason I suspect AVRT isn't the right approach to something dieting (or maybe smoking but I'm not sure). It would be almost silly to make a Big Plan that says, "I will never eat a donut again and I will never change my mind." Intellectually we all know that few (if any) of us could ever be "addicted" to a donut to the degree that one bite and we'll eat donuts til we die. But many, even most, of us are that way with booze. Using AVRT to avoid, say, soda, seems like using a bazooka to kill a mouse. Not to minimize the danger of eating badly, but I don't think the AVRT approach was conceived of to deal with food. Perhaps it can be adapted but I'm not sure.

And while I too would like a dollar for each time I said "NEVER!" I can see now that when I said "never" before I made my Big Plan I really meant "not now." The Big Plan can't work until you really understand deep down that drinking is a binary decision; there's ONE and ZERO.

I don't want to make this an argument with anyone, so I hope that's not how I'm coming across. It's important to stop drinking and stay stopped, so any method that works is good. If something works for you, great. If not, keep what works and try something else.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:50 PM
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The statement that ďit is impossible for a person to drink voluntarily after making a big planĒ is not a statement about you. Itís about ďa personĒ i.e. people in general. I canít determine how you came to this generalized conclusion. Thatís why I asked.

Making the statement that ďit is impossible for a person to drink voluntarily after making a big planĒ is just not true. It is contradicted by all sorts of people posting here on SR. I have no reason to question their honesty or sincerity. The problem I have with this sort of absolute statement (yours or Trimpeys) is not so much that it is simply not true, but that it denies the very experience of some who attempt to follow this method. I find this denial disrespectful, and unhelpful. Iím frankly not surprised that itís unsupported.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MythOfSisyphus View Post
I suspect AVRT isn't the right approach to something dieting (or maybe smoking but I'm not sure).

It would be almost silly to make a Big Plan that says, "I will never eat a donut again and I will never change my mind."

Intellectually we all know that few (if any) of us could ever be "addicted" to a donut to the degree that one bite and we'll eat donuts til we die.
Sorry, guys, to chime in here but couldn't pass by)

Well, MythOfSisyphus, then I'm definitely silly)))))

Though I haven't said that I will never eat a donut, but I've decided not to eat to cope with my anxiety.

For me the difference is as follows:

- a person can eat a donut once in a while just because he/she likes it taste, or whatever;

- a person can mindlessly turn to donuts or other junk food because he/she is anxious, bored, depressed, feels lonely, .i.e. to seek that "comforting" feeling. And it's just up to a person - is he/she sees it as a problem or not.

I think it's quite a question, and I am not going to dwell on it here. Just IMHO it depends on to what extent it matters to you.

Donuts don't kill us, though if eaten on regular basis and in excess junk food won't do any good to health in the long term, but for me, it's still the way to seek "comforting" which, again, for me has the same origin as comforting from wine. But still it's just my point of view.

Best luck to all)
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:59 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Yes,yes you are both right. I can say "in the now" I will never ever drink again, now at this moment. I know I won't drink tomorrow, or Thursday, my lifestyle does not dictate that I would want to do this. But, it's when the evening comes that I know everyone is out socializing that I get jittery. I can and have walked into the bar and ordered the soda, but I know that feeling as someone called it, "doing it raw". How many peeps want to go out and just drink soda? Come on now, be really honest! Only those driving or on some form of meds, or.....here it is.....those poor old sods that can't control their drinking.

Now. I've been there with those feelings those thoughts and now feel I actually don't need the alcohol at all, don't want it, because I find even one or two actually do have an affect the next day. I'm still sluggish and slightly hungover enough to not want it at all. I now realize that we are drinking to numb our brains. If the event were so interesting, exciting & riveting we wouldn't want to drink at all. You know that little moment when you say to yourself, what am I doing here! Well now that's when I can get in my car and drive home. I love it. But Ive only come to this conclusion through repeatedly going out there and doing it. Nothing, no programme no-one ever, has done it for me, I'm afraid, only ME. X
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Old 05-29-2013, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
The statement that ďit is impossible for a person to drink voluntarily after making a big planĒ is not a statement about you. Itís about ďa personĒ i.e. people in general. I canít determine how you came to this generalized conclusion. Thatís why I asked.

Making the statement that ďit is impossible for a person to drink voluntarily after making a big planĒ is just not true. It is contradicted by all sorts of people posting here on SR. I have no reason to question their honesty or sincerity. The problem I have with this sort of absolute statement (yours or Trimpeys) is not so much that it is simply not true, but that it denies the very experience of some who attempt to follow this method. I find this denial disrespectful, and unhelpful. Iím frankly not surprised that itís unsupported.
Well, is it science or faith that determines "You will never ..." is equivalent to "It is impossible for you to voluntarily ..."?
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Old 05-29-2013, 05:21 AM
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For more then 30 years now, my original choice to not ever drink again is still working and unbroken. In fact, I would still rather be dead and gone then ever drink again, so something is still working day in and day out no matter what I still don't drink. I started drinking age 12 and finally quit age 24. In the years between 18 and 24 I struggled on my own with quitting and I was unsuccessful using my own ideas. I finally did quit using a combination of AVRT and AA program. Before this I did not have success.

My experiences with quitting and thereafter eventually successfully staying quit are uncommon. Also with this is my unusual very personalised blended use of AVRT and AA program within my sans alcohol lifestyle. As was somewhat commented on by Newatthis earlier in the thread, I am a successful working example of taking what I need and desire from AVRT. And AA program too. And thereafter getting on with my life. I do this with everything in my life, not just with my non-drinking lifestyle. I enjoy being as unique as I can manage in all things. Being an individual is paramount in my journey through life. A different walk, a different talk, a different life. I am by choice not another face in the crowd.

I don't agree with the idea that any BP made by me makes it impossible for me to get drunk. Having said that, I've only ever made one BP, and this plan has always worked without fail. Same with AA, the program works without fail for me.

However.

I don't drink anymore not because of my success with my BP or my AA. These 'resources' help me be me in ways I could not be without my making use of these 'resources' in my lifestyle. I don't drink anymore because the 'Robby'' who drank no longer runs the show. I'm in charge of me. I choose what I choose, and the buck always stops with me, no matter what. This was not always the truth with me, but has always now been the truth ever since I quit drinking back in 1981.

I quit drinking as an agnostic. Now I am a mature spiritual individual ie I am a Christian. In this too, I'm unusual. God is in charge of and the keeper of my total life now given back to Him of course I realize, else I am not a living Christian, yet still though, I MYSELF am in charge of the decisions in my own life, and no one but me is responsible for my decisions. I drive my own bus, not God has the steering wheel and drives it for me; I am the driver. My free will remains intact and totally my own to use as I will. I do not answer to God in a personal sense as myself ie I answer only as a Christian. Robby the 'person' answers to know one or to no other entity super-natural or not. I know of no existing reason in truth for me to not be responsible to myself first, last, and always.

It is not surprising then, that my AVRT Big Plan is simply another tool/technique for me to resource to be of an aid to me to not return to drinking. Same thing with AA. No difference, just another tool in my sans-alcohol lifestyle to enjoy my being both sober and abstinent all at the same instant in the now moments of my real life.

So, the only thing that keeps me from not drinking is myself, same as when I quit way back in 1981. That day, that quit, still exists for me today. I'm a non-drinking person because of my choices on that day, July 22, 1981. I do not make new choices to not drink today. I use the same old choices that have always worked.

So, neither AVRT with it's Big Plan, nor AA with it's program forbid me from choosing to drink. Choosing to drink is not the same thing as physically drinking - a huge difference exists obviously.

With that said, I'm going to be as clear as possible with my day-to-day experience with my success with not returning to drinking.

Everyday, I have some moments of deep understanding and meditations of my having been in my past a drinking person. I simply cannot get through a single day without my being thoughtful and grateful I am no longer that drinking person that I WAS.

This remembering instantly causes and creates for me some measure of Addictive Voice. My AVRT recognises this and smashes it (the AV) against my Big Plan which then confirms my established separation of me from IT. This has happened every single day since I quit, and will continue to happen every single day right up to the moments of my death. I absolutely enjoy these experiences. They bring me great strength and empower me to easily man up to my life responsibilities as a non-drinker.

When I decided to change up my being agnostic for being a Christian, I also saw the need to have a spiritual solution to my spiritual ills. It turns out, for me anyways, that alcoholism was already defined as a spiritual illness. How very fortunate and convenient, so I decided that I too had this defined alcoholism, and so my use of AA program creates for me a spiritual solution as well for me as a recovered alcoholic drug addict living a spiritual life.

A bit of a paradox of course. I like paradoxes, lol. There is more to living a life of collective paradoxes then what is revealed at first blush, let me happily report.

So for me, I cannot as I am today, ever return to drinking, without first breaking some very important already made decisions. It really comes down to that single word: NEVER.

NEVER is a very long time. It's my responsibility to NEVER which is my greatest strength and resource in my not returning to drinking.

My life lived after not drinking is an altogether different responsibility which brings into focus my quality of life, which for me is also an important experience in my quitting drinking.

Anyways.

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Old 05-29-2013, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Received View Post
I'm curious, fini. What exactly is it that you "figured out"?

Apparently you have not drank for some time and yet I don't remember you ever posting about what YOU did or didn't do. Of course you may have posted something a long time ago but it might be helpful if you catch us "newcomers" up to date. I would think if you've been successful with quitting alcohol and staying quit others may benefit from your knowledge.

Constantly questioning other members and their decisions and methods or programs is fine, I guess. It would however be nice if you share your experience and therefore knowledge with us.
Received,

what i figured out is that my choices re drinking were not free. they were impaired. by being a drunk. that there is powerlessness that goes with that. that i am NOT powerless to do stuff to not go back to drinking.

this is NOT the thread to get into that, and in fact i have spoken about in conversations with Newatthis and Robby; it's interwoven in other threads.

i started this thread to get away from other people's threads and their decisions and methods they use and from questioning other individuals in their threads and posts. i invited people HERE to THIS thread if they wish to engage about this topic.
if you do not find it useful or see it solely as Constantly questioning other members and their decisions and methods or programs please just ignore the thread.
there are things i like others' input on, and so i ask. and then i ask some more. if it doesn't suit you. please ignore.
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:21 AM
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If you have an interest in quitting for good and then drink again, it just so happens that the T of R'ing your AV DOES involve Re-cognizance of your AV leading up to that first drink. And, yes, the Technique does involve "dissecting" the AV out of your thoughts and feelings all the way back to when you first recall having the idea of "screw it, do it".

So, I'm sorry that it turns out that the point of your thread just happens to be what you are trying to avoid. I'm not suggesting you failed at all, just that you are choosing not to use AVRT.


sure.
but it's not what the point of the thread.
the point i wanted to talk about is the circularity of the response to relapse: if you drink again after having made a big plan, then you did not really make a real big plan.
the retrospective that insists it knows better than the person going through the experience.
the re-writing that says: you only THOUGHT you mad a big plan. the fact that you drank again shows that you didn't. because it's impossible to...."

which sounds the same as " you only THOUGHT you worked the steps properly. if you'd REALLY done it right, then...because it's impossible to....."

it's no biggie, GT.

the conversation might ultimately help someone who hasn't lied to themselves in making a BP and knows how to recognize the AV and finds themselves going back to drinking regardless of all that without having freely chosen to do so.
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:31 AM
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Making a big plan is part of the Addictive Voice Recognition Technique...so without being able to identify and separate from the AV (The R of AVRT), my big plan wouldn't really be a big plan.
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