fini

yeah, bms, i mean NO, don't want to go back there to that conversation right now.
not relevant here now, anyway.

just thought i'd mention that i got sober when i was 51, so yes, i derailed a gazillion times.
until i didn't.
yes, a cautious view of hope here, too.. too often i've mixed it up with foolishly set up expectations.
the dividing line is thin.

Hope with capital H....yes!

bemyself

Hi friends, thought I'd just bump this old thread rather than start a new one.

I'm kinda sick in the guts to feel that the period - only a few weeks - since my last reply actually SEEMS so long. Or rather, what I mean is: my felt sense of Time, itself, during each day is agonisingly slow except when I then start drinking. And then, it speeds up........until the next morning for example, as i wait to see if I'll pick up again or not .

Probably makes no sense to anyone. The latest instance of the sheer agonising slowness was all of Thursday and half of Friday. I had no more wine in the house, I was sick of feeling sick and trapped in relapse mode, and so determined to put myself through quitting. Detox was not too bad, though it helped when I took one 5 mg (smallest dose) of the old Valium tabs. Yesterday morning, friday 'Day 2', I was travelling quite well.

I took the dog out for a run around in a dog park, dropped off a library journal. On the way home in the car, it was by then about lunchtime and I hadn't eaten at all (the old appetite suppression thing of early withdrawal). I felt woozy and spaced out and weak - basically of course, slump in blood sugar.

All I could think of and wanted - despite my best RR intentions!!!!! - was some wine.

So I stopped at the local shop. Bought a bottle. Drank it over about 4 hours, in between having a short nap and getting out in the garden to do some winter pruning. I told myself throughout: 'OK, I didn't want to pick up today. But I did, and I'll at the very least limit this to the one bottle. And then start quitting again tomorrow.'

But no. I drove out at the end of the afternoon, bought another. Drank about a quarter of it, had some dinner and went to bed early.

This morning, having been up from about 7 a.m. and almost entirely reading on SR: it's now just on 10.00 am, and I'm on my second cup of wine.

Why the Ad Nauseum part of the post title? Because I literally had the damned Two Options in my head all morning. Exactly the same stuff I've written about on SR before.

Option A: 'Pour out the remaining wine. Just get through the next few hours, have a piece of toast, have another late morning nap. Then take the dog out for the Saturday papers and some doggy play etc. Then maybe even drive half an hour over to a women's meeting just after lunch, simply to get out of the house again and chat to a few other recovering alcoholics. Don't worry about how much cravings I might have throughout the day.....just do these first few things..... [you guys know the drill]'

Option B: 'The mental blank....all of that (option A) is too hard. I'm kidding myself. My brain / Beast part has become pretty much irrevocably altered towards both depression AND the 'need' for alcohol...so just pour that wine. Don't worry about what happens later in the day, when the bottle is finished. I'll feel sludgy and heavy, with a metallic taste in my mouth and probably not eat anything till about 2pm....Maybe in a few hours, when the bottle is finished, I'll stick to what I didn't stick to yesterday arvo, and NOT go out for another bottle.....'

Oh gawd. The circular, solipsistic entrapment of the chronically relapsing older brain and body. Soooooo tedious. Soooo obscenely alluring. Tedium + allurement, both together. Addiction Ambivalence, in a nutshell. And ad nauseum.

bemyself

Oh and I felt it a bit more appropriate to post this stuff here rather than in Newcomers....talk of active drinking, hence the 'diary' format. I get far less responses here because a quieter board, BUT have no wish to trigger very new Newbies, i.e. those trying to quit for the very first time in their lives.

So please, anyone in that category who's visiting here, please accept my apologies in advance.

Dee74

We can give you all the advice in the world Vic but until you start makes different choices, you know yourself nothing is going to change.

Surely there must be other things you can do to shore up your recovery - no matter how unpleasant undignified and uncomfortable they might seem at the moment?

D

bemyself

Thanks for a quick reply Dee.

I'm not even sure I'm seeking advice...more just some understanding of the relapsio ad nauseum. I know you're extremely busy these days, what with so many more new members. Someone like me must drive you to distraction. However, I've noticed that on other parts of SR you're a little more understanding of those who keep struggling with relapsing.

'Choices'? There's the rub. You and I both know that if it was ONLY - or rather solely - down to (cognitive) choices, everyone who recognises they're an addict would simply 'choose' to 'Just Say No' or some other variant on that theme.

I've made the Choice / made the Big Plan / gone to AA / gone to SMART / read everything available on addiction especially alcoholism and recovery from it for several years now - and still do. I've practised meditation. Mindfulness. CBT. Buddhist approaches to cravings and desire and addiction. Twelve Step stuff (though more the alternative ones for me). Urge surfing (did that only just on Thursday and Fri morning). Had AOD counsellors, psychologists, psychiatrists over roughly 20 years. Been to detox and rehab facilities 3 times in 3 years plus recently gone through home detox by myself, in early May.

I just said I would (if able to stay sober today, just today) have something to eat and then drive up to a women's AA meeting, even though I'm not by any means an AA insider and as you know by now, try to practise several other ways of staying sober.

The rub is, for me: 'staying sober'. I can get sober, and have done so. But it's staying sober, and then staying sober.......ad nauseum, as it were....and staying sober again etc, which clearly is my personal conundrum. I won't call it a failure though of course it often feels like that. I was in fact only just following one of the threads about those who had to try and try and try again (over in Newcomers I think it was).

I feel I'm having to defend myself here, for being a chronic relapser. I'm sure you (Dee) don't mean that I should have to either feel defensive or be a chronic relapser, both. Perhaps you're simply hoping to get me to another mental place, where my mind changes; where the key of ongoing sobriety fits in the lock. I don't know.

All I can say right now is, I vividly remember a wonderful line from William Alexander's 'Cool Water' (book) my very first book about alcoholism, recovery and mindfulness: he said that at one point - 'it wasn't so much that I changed my mind, but that my mind changed'. Zen koan type stuff. THAT'S where I'm at, I guess.

Thanks so much for all your attention to us, Dee. Hope I don't sound too snippy, I don't mean to be.

Dee74

Staying sober is definitely the harder bit.
I had to change a lot of my life - rebuild it from the ground up.

I had to change a lot of friends...I had to change the myriad of things I used to drink for...and find alternative ways to deal with those ever present problems and 'reasons for drinking' I had.

It was a lot of work, and a lot of discomfort...the journey to happiness it took way way longer than I wanted it to....

it took a lot tears, a ton of determination and of patience...but I didn't want to live that old life one second more. I didn't want to die that way.

I always think about what I post.

To be honest, I don't think I'm any harder on you than I've been on anyone else Vic.
Sometimes support is pillows and sometimes it's a little granite plynth to lean on to get yourself upright.

Folks who been here longer tend to get the plynth approach more than the pillows.

Its the teach a fisherman to fish thing

Maybe it's a flawed approach, maybe I picked the wrong one, but I don't think so...I think you have enough pillows and you can handle some granite

Do I understand your predicament - yes, for sure.
Lived it.

Do I think you could do better?
hell yes....

it's clear to me and just about everyone else here that you have an amazing untapped potential.

but it's on you to really believe that, accept what you need to do...and pick up the mantle, Vic.

D

bemyself

Thanks Dee.

A little granite plinth to lean on to keep myself upright.....heh heh, thanks for that. I like it. yeah, sure, I know that pillows only have a place when one is completely worn out, and just needs to rest for a bit. A granite plinth, by comparison. Ha! reminds me of a very old b + w photo of me as a 19 y.o., looking rather haggard and ragged / bohemian, leaning sluggardly against a simple stone sculpture in the forecourt of the then-brand-new Adelaide Festival Centre on the Torrens. 1974? The image and experience I was in then, from memory, was 'world weary'....already, at 19, or even 18.

It brings up lots of memories, but ones in your context now which I might mentally photo-shop, re-arrange in a new context.

God/desses knows how that might work, but it's a nice image.

Thanks for not-coddling me :-) And thanks so much too for the bit about 'untapped potential' which you and others have seen. I used to have all that potential, and in the past, activated it.....but as you know, years of drinking and mental illness, then physical ailments too, tend to drain it. We stop believing in ourselves. I know I have done so.

Thanks Dee!

MythOfSisyphus

I can sympathize with you. I'm getting pretty close to 9 months sober now and it wasn't all easy, to be sure. Lately I've been facing the greatest kind of challenge- boredom. School is done for the summer and I don't go back for two months. I've been laying low at home because I'm trying not to blow any money. I have a couple of expensive hobbies, both of which I've been indulging lately. For the most part I've given myself permission since the money I've saved by not drinking (probably $650 per month!) covers my hobbies. But lately I've been cutting back and working on saving cash for a rainy day.

Well, between not wanting to go out and spend and the hot weather making me not want to do stuff outdoors, I've actually been slightly bored. Boredom used to be the most dangerous trigger for my drinking. After all, drinking is its own form of entertainment.

All I can do is try to stay in the moment, if that makes sense. I know what what's behind me and that it didn't work. My best option is to stay the course, no matter what. I don't know if that helps you but it helps me. Drinking is off the table right now in my mind, so when I consider it I immediately dismiss it.

fini

'Choices'? There's the rub. You and I both know that if it was ONLY - or rather solely - down to (cognitive) choices, everyone who recognizes they're an addict would simply 'choose' to 'Just Say No' or some other variant on that theme.

Victoria,

my biggest challenge, really, was with the choices-thing.
the choices-thing to do with choosing to drink again. with the "why do i seemingly choose to do this again when this morning i had definitely chosen not to?"
the choice which is about control, power and agency.
how could it be that apparently i didn't have those when clearly i was the one in charge of what i put in my mouth???

that kind of stuff. i'm sure you're familiar with it

as i wait to see if I'll pick up again or not .

yes; i experienced it that way, too, at times. the separating into the me that watches this other me to see what she'll do. some acknowledgment there about lack of control...this other person operating and i'm not sure what she'll do. when i SHOULD be sure.

and the choice to quit being highjacked over and over...

but really, what i want to get to is this: your option A and option B.
plan B says plan A is too hard.

plan A is, in fact, simple. putting one foot in front of....you know all this.

not easy. but doable.
Plan B is easy, sure. and lands you at the starting gate over and over. plan B for all its ease is the trap. the lie. the horror. all that good stuff.

plan A is where the choices are, where they are "make-able".

the "just do it" is in a different place, mefinds. not the one big choice, but the many little ones.

raku

I like what you say, Myth......about staying in the moment. I find, the Now in my life is the only way to stay sober. If I have to sit and meditate the accepting of a craving for
alcohol, letting it go, and focusing on the use of a meditation tool I have learned and practiced...all day long, I do !
I remember years ago telling my father that I was alcoholic (like he hadn't figured it out already !). His comment I remember well was..."You don't want to die an alcoholic"
The choice "became Crystal Clear", but not for 10 years after the conversation, of the pattern of drink, drunk, de-tox, sober, etc. So I definitely understand relapse...mostly, it is a thinking/feeling attitude pattern, that I needed to find a way to dissolve. I have that way, it is an experiential kind of thing, not dogma, like now I can actually Feel the alcohol thoughts leave, as if they had form (which I do believe thoughts have form). When I retain my awareness and consciousness, I remain sober. It's that simple.

raku

Obladi

bemyself,

If it gives you any comfort, I understand and have been living a similar ad nauseum. Clearly, you haven't entirely given up on yourself as you are still thinking about this, still wanting to get well and far away from the trap door. That's something.

And I recognize that sense of time too. Wonder myself how I could have been so full of determination just a day or a week or a month ago and wonder at the time stretching qualities of the rabbit hole. It's rather like a waking nightmare to me.

Don't know that I have anything to offer but this empathy. And the wish that both of us can get a good grasp on that strand of hope and hold on tight.

bemyself

Wow - such an incredible array of deep-felt understanding from all of you, Myth, fini, raku, Obladi. I can't thank you enough. You each 'get' the fine - almost excruciatingly fine - shades of grey I was trying to describe about time, choice, and yes of course: thought/s.

I'm with you raku, on thoughts being felt as having a sort of 'form'. They are palpable, have a mysterious power in that palpability.... I was reflecting earlier this morning, after reading your post/s, that thought comes up over and over and over again for recovery and addiction. It's finessed in slightly different ways depending on which recovery mode - AA / NA, SMART and similar CBT based stuff, and of course AVRT.

Our thoughts are seen and known to be 'the problem' - that which lead us to drink whether continually or again in a slip or relapse. Our thoughts are also then 'thought' to be almost the prime solution to the never ending cycle of drinking, and of cravings-not-acted upon.

As you say raku, when we 'experience' / 'feel' our thoughts with a degree of 'form' - it then becomes (well, for me it does) extraordinarily difficult to do the Buddhist thing of letting them go, letting them float away as in urge surfing or meditation in general. I've done numerous visualisations to help in that regard - my recurring one is to 'see' that formed thought as just a leaf on a stream, almost insubstantial, and so just bobbing and weaving up and down and AWAY on the stream of water.......sometimes it's helped. But sometimes, I can't sustain that lightness, that sense of making the thought into something transient, light as air (or a leaf). It's just got too much FORM, dammit!

What I'm struggling to articulate is probably something akin to Plato's cave type of stuff....

Some might say, wearily, oh for pity's sake, you're overthinking this: just don't pick up the first drink / or whatever variation of anti-craving mode you employ.

But then it always comes down to the common thread in all your replies: 'staying in the moment'. With the damned thoughts, formed or formless; with the jitteriness of physical withdrawal and / or the loneliness / boredom; with the felt sense of time itself, the minutes ticking (Hobsbawm, the great English historian famously talked of the industrial revolution embedding 'the tyranny of the clock' - oh, YES).

All I can say now (in this moment) is that I have all of that in the above paragraph.....having again stopped and poured out the remaining wine, yesterday arvo at about 3.30pm. I had in fact gone to buy a second bottle just before that....poured and drank the first of that bottle.....(after having been through the first)....felt sick, familiarly. And so made that particular Option A choice of ditching the remainder, immediately. So, now, it's been 19 hours; there's that damned Time again :-)

Curious how alcoholics end up measuring Time both in the early parts of withdrawal (mostly in my experience to be aware of any nasty physical symptoms), and then, by the day, week, month, year of no-drinking. There's an essay in there somewhere :-)

Thanks again, crew. It's very very good to know that others know firsthand of this frightful 'ad nauseum' trap. I don't feel quite so nuts!

fini

Our thoughts are seen and known to be 'the problem' - that which lead us to drink whether continually or again in a slip or relapse. Our thoughts are also then 'thought' to be almost the prime solution to the never ending cycle of drinking, and of cravings-not-acted upon.

don't know about that, Victoria.
i often and infuriatingly "found myself" with the knowledge that i would go buy the stuff on my way home, without ever consciously "thinking", or being aware of any "thoughts" about it. in fact, the thoughts i WAS aware of had been all about having quit and NOT buying the stuff.
but of course, there must have been something...there was action, in the end. the action of buying and, later, drinking.
the idea of not having control of my thoughts...well, i don't, of course, yet...ah, i see, another clear post from me!

another point i wish to make is that despite "stinking thinking", not everywhere are our thoughts thought to be the prime solution to the never-ending cycle. your plan A, in fact, seems not thought-based but action-based. and many succeed with actions. my "plan A is where the choices are" referred to actions, not thoughts.

thoughts...you have plenty. i had plenty. they didn't get me where i needed to be. understanding i'm a drunk and then taking some actions got me there. the thoughts...well, they kept jumping all over the place. changing. my thoughts about this thing now aren't anything like what they were then (when i quit). but my actions around it are still pretty consistent. and yes, my thoughts now FEEL more in line with my own experience, but the way i saw/see my experience...when i was still drinking, right in the middle of the experience, i couldn't really see it clearly. yet i thought that of course i did, and that seeing it while doing it was the best clarity i could have.

so, some will say what i think is more clarity now about the experience then is revisionist history.

anyway, now i lost the thread of where i was going, so this will dangle without a proper "end"...

Margit

RobbyRobot

"I think, therefore I am" -- Rene Descartes (1644)

Doubt is such a wonderfully sharp tool in exploring our inner caverns of hidden treasures in discovering our own existence and self-worth. As philosophy suggests, asking the question very often can be proof enough of an answer being realized eventually.

I'm 56 years old. I finally quit drinking / drugging at 24 after seriously wanting to quit at age 18 after whole heartily starting drinking at age 12. Twelve drunken years of asking question after question and eventually finding myself alone with myself drunk and dying.

As a recovered alcoholic I'm forever irrevocably in lock-step with my alcoholism. The only way out is death. I can choose a sober death or a drunk death. There are no other choices before me. I'm not blind to other opportunities to change my past and present philosophy on alcoholism. I have certain respect and in some cases admiration for those who quit drinking on nothing but their own powers of self-worth and self-determinations by choice alone they quit drinking for its own reward and sake. Me (my living) was not enough for me. By choice, I suppose, but nonetheless.

For me, I was faced with being worthless to the point when even death by suicide looked like it may not keep me dead enough to escape my alcoholic prison. In my experiences, there are more ways to die then what is given up by the flesh alone. Psychotic illusions and delusions kept me thinking inside the dark box of my limitations. Unreal and surreal experiences finally landed me in a mental hospital diagnosed with undifferentiated schizophrenia. Stable and chronic was their final comment on my mental health prognosis. Stable and chronic (incurable) within a wholly schizophrenic empowered world, that goes without saying, for the rest of my life. Questions, questions, and more questions. What really is real? Schizophrenia is a thinking disorder of the mind. Objective and subjective all too often inter-change and morph into whatever until even the impossible becomes possible, and of course the other way around too, lol.

Doubt is such an awesome knife against ignorance and arrogance which can seriously cut both ways if one allows fear to be the guiding hand of the instrument to better enlightenment.

To realize better, more useful, more transparent answers one needs to identify fear both intellectually / mentally and emotionally -- in the whole psyche -- one needs to be the master and not the slave of capturing fear and yet also letting it go all at the same moment.

How real do any of us want to be in our everyday life?

How often is every Clark Kent truly a Superman?

Does it even matter?

I quit drinking because it was a sure bet I was gonna die while drunk and while guilty of being drunk. Guilty of living a dying life. A lying life. A dead life. Guilty. Unconditionally guilty of being drunk.

I didn't quit drinking to be all sober and clean. All happy and rich. All safe and sound. All bright and shiny. All these wonderful extras are what they are: extras. I'd still be sober without them. As it is, sobriety is neither easier or harder with or without these extras. Life is easier to be sure, and with that said, I also say sobriety is not my life, but simply sobriety is in my life.

raku

"Addition Ambivalence"
To all...bemyself, for starting this discussion, in particular, but also to Robby. I just read your post, and although my brother is the diagnosed psychizo-affective one, I have dealt with a significant amount of severe ups & downs with bipolar dis-ease. This has been, despite the highs of hypo-mania, as terrorizing as being an outa' control drinker, a chronic relapser. I started to have problems with both when I was about 30 - now I am 60. At times, god help me, they have overlapped !
My attitude of these two life issues has changed over the last fews years. Total abstinence from alcohol, a de-tox is a necessity to clear the mind/body of the poisons which clog up the energy systems. Acceptance of the weakness is key, but first and foremost is being aware of my thoughts & feelings, letting myself experience them without judgement (like, "Oh my god !...this is a bad feeling" or "I shouldn't dislike that neighbor so much !"), RELEASING them...This is crucial, especially if one has a "pattern", stubbornly familiar, yet futile, of being caught in the choice of "do I drink or not ?", or "Is it ok if I hate my job ?"
I feel, then observe, the "symptoms", the thoughts & feelings, from a distanced view (they are part of me, but not me) as they pop up, sometimes on an hourly basis.
The next step is using light-fire to consume ALL thoughts (feelings are no different), whether I label them "good" or "bad" . This is a "tool" of the meditation I use. I DO sense the dense thoughts leaving (as if they had a physical form). This is the dynamic part. The next part is going magnetic, and attracting the essence (not the debris!), the purified experience of what may be going on in my psyche or around the person or situation I find myself with or in. The resulting "answer", the positive energy, is Crystal Clear.
It takes practice to get better at it, to realize the effect, and like most experiences, it takes some time to internally digest.
This may be helpful to some who have no vehicle to transmute lower "frequencies"
in place.
raku

RobbyRobot

This thread has awesomeness.

raku

I agree, Robby !

bemyself

Hi guys, just wanted to say thanks for those last few DEEE-EEEEP reflections! I'll need to go back to them several times, to ponder.

Just for now though, I've joined the June newcomers class (now in July of course). First time I've ever been in a month class, but decided I need to be there while I work on getting sober again. Feeling pretty dispirited about the struggle, frankly. But I won't ever give up completely.

I'll probably pop in and out of my thread here when I need to do the kind of wordy rambling that is a bit over the top for the daily support threads.

xx Vic

GerandTwine

Here's a link to a review of a new book that lead me to think of this thread.

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-r...t-kept-secret/

bemyself

Thanks GT - I always enjoy hearing about new books (just so I can justify loading up my multiple bookshelves even further!).

I'm not entirely clear about the link between a book on women's alcoholism (specifically) and this thread....still, often stuff just sparks various associations, does it not?

But yes, re women and drinking. I suspect that the 'freedom' for women to drink (and smoke) can be pinned roughly to around the flapper era. And then a vast social history to the present day. I don't know if anyone's written a definitive social history of women and drinking, as opposed to the various pieces of scientific / medical research or the journalistic overviews like this book; not to mention the many - and increasing - drinking memoirs by women.

Regardless, it's certainly true about the metabolic differences between men and women alcoholics, and some psychological differences too between the sexes.

In addition, I've been personally very struck by the preponderance of women seeking treatment (from my rehab experiences) and in the various support groups, including AA. Not only that, but the sheer range of age groups and social backgrounds of these women.

Myself, I'm one of the rough category (if you could call it that) of an older woman (late 50s) battling alcoholism - both getting sober, staying sober for a time or several, relapsing, and trying again....and again...and again. There's not much research yet - though there's some - of the older alcoholic trying for sobriety, whether men or women.

This cohort are in my opinion only starting to be recognised as facing shall we say, an extra degree of difficulty. My own considered view is partly informed by my own painful experiences as well as the sheer brain science of addiction, in our cases, alcohol dependence. The brain has been trained in neurochemical pathways over decades and decades for the older alcoholic. Much like what happens too in chronic depression, for example, or PTSD / trauma and such.

So yeah, combine that sheer overload if you will of 'time spent' drinking, various genetic / family history and underlying psychological traits PLUS gender specific physiological differences....oh, and did I mention the kinds of social contexts modern women have to navigate?

Quite the mountain to climb. But, as so many SR members who are women attest, many are doing it.

PS on the older alcoholic thing, you might be interested to know that here in Melbourne, there's actually a pilot programme (very poorly funded with minimal staff) called OWLS (Older Wiser Living something). It's a bunch of addiction specialists and workers trying to help people 60 y.o. and above. I didn't qualify, dammit because I'm not yet 60. Still, given the age bulge / baby boomer demographic on the rise here and in most countries, I believe such groups should be funded more and more to help us oldies :-)