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How Important is Subtle AV Recognition?

Old 04-09-2013, 06:42 PM
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
If it has to do with booze, it's AV.
I don't think it's that black and white. If it has to do with me drinking booze, it's AV. If my wife spills wine on her blouse, and I think "that wine is gonna leave a stain", it's about booze, but it's not AV. I don't think so, anyway. Perhaps people here will disagree.

It just seems overboard. It also seems like you've surrendered your rational mind. Non-alcoholics can think about alcohol and it's not beast. Just because I have a beast who wants to convince me to drink alcohol doesn't mean my rational mind went away. When I was in high school chemistry class and studied the composition of ethanol, that was about booze, but it wasn't AV. I still have that rational mind. It's in there and it has capabilities.

But like I said, it's splitting hairs at this point. My AV is sufficiently active that I don't have to wonder if any particular thought might mean the beast is active. It's no mystery. My beast is very very active. Plenty of real AV going on. I don't have to go looking for something that might be.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by trachemys View Post
well yeah, could be the situation
Back on me. Again.

Right.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by nonsensical
I don't think it's that black and white. If it has to do with me drinking booze, it's AV. If my wife spills wine on her blouse, and I think "that wine is gonna leave a stain", it's about booze, but it's not AV. I don't think so, anyway. Perhaps people here will disagree.
Yes, that's an important distinction. I agree. I didn't mean that any sentence that has a booze word in it is AV. LOL

But like I said, it's splitting hairs at this point.
Yes, it can seem that way for sure. But to me, does it really matter if I designate a thought as AV that actually isn't?! What have I lost there? Taking into consideration my last go around with the beast, I definitely err on the side of caution now. I'm a tough b*tch and I almost didn't make it back alive from that bender.

I haven't lost my rational mind through this though. I understand that AVRT is nothing more than a very effective technique for quitting that, once applied, actually requires very little thought. I don't have to spend much time classifying thoughts, giving me all the time in the world to think deep rational thoughts about other cool stuff...like shoes and bacon.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:28 PM
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My belief is that if you sit on the fence too long you may end up with splinters in your butt.give the av no room to move
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I haven't lost my rational mind through this though. I understand that AVRT is nothing more than a very effective technique for quitting that, once applied, actually requires very little thought. I don't have to spend much time classifying thoughts, giving me all the time in the world to think deep rational thoughts about other cool stuff...like shoes and bacon.
I'm still new to using AVRT, though I have never been sober this long in my life, but I have found that if I wonder if it's AV, it's probably AV. Like you said, no harm done if it's not. There is no baby in that bathwater.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:09 AM
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I have made the idea of drinking again and my BP into a very personal moral issue, drawing on a past experience of a dear friend. I use this conflation to make Mr Occam's razor wicked sharp, and the detection of my AV defaults to a very simple test. If a thought is about alcohol, and the context makes me the least uncomfortable or uneasy, it is AV. C2H6O is ok, but a mimosa at brunch is AV. A glass of wine spilled on the carpet is OK, but if it happens to be a 2007 Barolo, it's AV.

No baby in this bathwater indeed! Love that one, SK.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:32 AM
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So, if I am out to breakfast and I see a bloody mary with 2 strips of bacon stuck in it being served at a nearby table, and I think, "Oh, yum!" that's AV. Then I overhear them talking and the recipient of said drink mentions it's a virgin bloody mary and I think, "Oh, yum!" that same thought is no longer AV.

Clear as mud.

I do appreciate the insights, though. Truly.

What is your opinion on subtle AV identification when there is a deluge of not-subtle AV going on in my noggin? Is there value in checking the drippy faucet when the tsunami is rolling in?
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:55 AM
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What is your opinion on subtle AV identification when there is a deluge of not-subtle AV going on in my noggin? Is there value in checking the drippy faucet when the tsunami is rolling in?
Well for me, it's the subtle sh*t that got me before, not the obvious AV.

I will share this brief story. I quit the first time in my early 20s. The main reason was because of blacking out and waking up naked. My promiscuous behavior was out of control. I decided to quit before I ended up chopped up and thrown in a ditch somewhere. When I quit drinking, I made better choices regarding risky sexual behavior. Fast forward 10 years. A lot happened in between, and I had been married for many years and had kids. This thought came: "Isn't it nice to be married and not sleeping around? Geez you've really turned your life around." The initial thought wasn't even about booze. But that thought segued into "It's safe to have a glass of wine now, you are not who you used to be".

I don't know, Non...you're in a different place now than I was then, maybe not relevant at all for you.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:50 AM
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The supposition that one reflecting on having positively turned their lives around can, sourced from that process of reflection, lead themselves back to drinking is self-ego at its worst in play. Not everyone wants to take responsibility for their own actions, as it can be more satisfying for those same persons to justify their obvious desire to drink.

People return to drinking to drink, and for all the same justified reasons they originally drank over and with.

Thinking doesn't get people drunk. Drinking does. A physical act is required. People who equate success with not drinking don't return back to drinking. Ever. I'm an example of that kind of success.
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
So, if I am out to breakfast and I see a bloody mary with 2 strips of bacon stuck in it being served at a nearby table, and I think, "Oh, yum!" that's AV. Then I overhear them talking and the recipient of said drink mentions it's a virgin bloody mary and I think, "Oh, yum!" that same thought is no longer AV.
I don't think that whether or not the bloody mary is virgin or not matters. If you think it's not and think it looks good, I'd call it AV. What you find out later or what it actually is doesn't really matter.

If you could choose your thoughts about alcohol, would you choose to think that drinks look tasty? To me, that's just making life hard. Since they are not thoughts I would choose if I could choose, I just assign them to the AV.

I used to smoke (still use Swedish snus - that's the next BP), and I knew I'd never smoke again when cigarettes stopped looking and smelling good.
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I don't know, Non...you're in a different place now than I was then, maybe not relevant at all for you.
Not relevant, yet, I'd say. Give me a few years.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by nonsensical
Not relevant, yet, I'd say. Give me a few years.
Well, the cool thing is that you're thinking and reflecting. You will have such a better understanding than I did if your beast rallies after many years of being pretty quiet. You will be fine. xo
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Well for me, it's the subtle sh*t that got me before, not the obvious AV.

I will share this brief story. I quit the first time in my early 20s. The main reason was because of blacking out and waking up naked. My promiscuous behavior was out of control. I decided to quit before I ended up chopped up and thrown in a ditch somewhere. When I quit drinking, I made better choices regarding risky sexual behavior. Fast forward 10 years. A lot happened in between, and I had been married for many years and had kids. This thought came: "Isn't it nice to be married and not sleeping around? Geez you've really turned your life around." The initial thought wasn't even about booze. But that thought segued into "It's safe to have a glass of wine now, you are not who you used to be".

I don't know, Non...you're in a different place now than I was then, maybe not relevant at all for you.
Must agree. The subtle thoughts and feelings are more likely to get me as well. I pay alot of attention to them now. Well said Soberlicious
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Well for me, it's the subtle sh*t that got me before, not the obvious AV.
Right on Soberlicious. In my case it was the sneaky subtle AV that took hold in my past unsucessful quits. This time I am on the lookout for it and am willing to do anything to stay sober. This is a war for my life, which I have decided I am winning. No going back, so yes I'm on the watch for subtle changes and smack that beast back into the corner before it gets close.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:10 AM
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Hi Non-
When I got home yesterday after running around for 12+ hours straight between work, orthodontist, teenage daughter things.... I finally sat down and my first thought was "damn, I am tired and stressed". No AV there, right? Two hours later I realized that I really wanted a glass of wine. Now I flat out know I will not be able to have just one but, I realized although I may have been tired and I am a bit stressed... normally that also would have lead to drunk...

So, I thought about your thread and how subtle the AV can be. It started with a thought that had nothing to do with drinking and within a few hours it warped it into a drinking thought. I didn't recognize that it was using my negativity against me to build up for attack....lol...Oh well just thought I would share that.
Jess
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:29 AM
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Which part was subtle beast activity?

When you first got home you weren't fresh and energized and your beast was telling you that you were tired and stressed. You were really tired and stressed. I don't see any beast activity in recognizing that you were tired and stressed.

Later, if your beast was trying to tell you that you should soothe yourself with a little vino (it wasn't clear to me from your post if that's how it went down) then that was obviously el beasto grande rearing his ugly voice.

Anyway, good job on staying badass for another day. Get a massage for that stress. They are wonderful.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:39 AM
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Yeah sorry its early here.. right the first part was not technically beast activity at all... The last few days I really have been tired and stressed BUT, I didn't realize I have also been Ms. Negativity... So...

Once I finally settled in is when my beast loudly said, "you dont have to feel like this have a glass of wine. You can do that and you earned it". My point is I had not been paying much attention to my mood or why I was in such a bad mood. My beast uses my feelings ALOT to manipulate the situation. Sure I am tired but, life isnt that bad. I am being dramatic. about it. When my beast sees me in a certain mind set.. that is when it tends to act up.

I hope this makes more sense Non. I am kinda all over the place right now.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:01 AM
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Yup. Thanks.

I am learning to be mindful (if I am using that term appropriately) of certain situations that are my memory cues for drinking/beast activity. For example, all my life beer has been the reward for hard work. I have a cushy desk job, but on weekends I roll up the sleeves and build, rake, mow, etc. All day I would look forward to that beer at the end of a long hard day. Of course, we all know where that would lead me...to SR!

Anyway, that's all gone now, and never to be again. So, now when I am about to embark on some physical labor I will start mentally preparing myself for the beast. I remind myself that he will be coming, so be prepared. Sometimes I even pre-emptively remind IT of the BP. Then throughout the day I remind IT again.

I think it helps me stay positive to have a plan, or at least a proper frame of mind, for the times I know the beast will start his endless chatter.

Endnote:
Being sober and reflecting on the day's labor has been more interesting and rewarding than getting sh!tfaced as a reward. I also tend to get more done. I work a little later if I'm not knocking off early to get to that beer.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
Hi Non-
When I got home yesterday after running around for 12+ hours straight between work, orthodontist, teenage daughter things.... I finally sat down and my first thought was "damn, I am tired and stressed". No AV there, right? Two hours later I realized that I really wanted a glass of wine. Now I flat out know I will not be able to have just one but, I realized although I may have been tired and I am a bit stressed... normally that also would have lead to drunk...

So, I thought about your thread and how subtle the AV can be. It started with a thought that had nothing to do with drinking and within a few hours it warped it into a drinking thought. I didn't recognize that it was using my negativity against me to build up for attack....lol...Oh well just thought I would share that.
Jess
This makes a lot of sense to me. Sometimes, I'll have a thought that doesn't seem like AV, and on its face it's not. For example, the beast will suggest a restaurant. On examination, it will be a place I used to frequent but where I really don't like the food, but the drinks are cheap. Or it will suggest that I stop by and see my cousin at a time when I know that they are all sitting outside drinking beer. The thought "You should go say 'hi' to them, they haven't seen you in a while," doesn't seem like AV, but I know that it is. I can, of course, still go to the crappy restaurant or see my cousin and not drink, but when I realized that I don't really want to, the decision is easier.
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