So go to meetings, by all means. It is really your choices that are important, and not what others may say against you, or otherwise be unsupportive. You don't have to get all bent out of shape because you want meetings and you want AVRT.

You do though need to make a decision on how to handle and look after the wanting to drink issue. Do you see yourself using AVRT or AA for that single issue? Or would you try using both ways?

In any case, the issue cannot be left to just hang, are my thoughts. I'm sure you don't intend to just let your want to drink be unresolved. :)

I can see some eventually difficulties arising if you attend AA but you don't actually practice the program as a matter of purpose. Will AVRT be the only solution for your past drinking, and you simply want the fellowship of AA?

:)

You know, it is absolutely okay to attend AA just for fellowship, sober friends, and to not be alone or unconnected. :)

It's while attending for such above reasons that one is honest with themselves, and they admit that attending AA for such reasons is in fact part of their non-drinking solution. :)

A desire to quit is common to both AVRT and AA. That alone is enough to qualify for both experiences. :)

For anyone interested in where that link leads, it's the Secular 12 Step Forum. That appears to be the place where constructive criticism is tolerated. Thanks.

I didn't find any mention of that on this thread, nor have I found anything on the SR board. So I'll bite - why are said rules in place? I totally understand not being critical or "flaming", but why is this type of discussion forbidden? The answer to that question will certainly help me understand and sooth my frustration, I think.

You should PM the mods, BS. I'm sure they'd be happy to explain it. I think you've made pretty clear in past posts how you feel.

I like this thread a lot, Robby. Interesting stuff!

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Nobody will just TELL me, it's always "PM the mods", "click this link to find out", etc.

That said, I'll do so and bow out from this thread. Sorry for making everyone's life difficult on this one, it wasn't my intention but I know I come across as a 7 year-old who can't have a cookie sometimes. Best to all of you.

Hi

I will try to explain how using both AVRT and AA works for me without discussing AA.
Right now, this is my second time in recovery. The first time, in 2001, I was in rehab for 42 days so basically my AV could act up all they wanted, I was in a safe sheltered environment. After my stint in rehab, I went straight to AA and remained sober for 5 years.
I am in early recovery right now (44 days) and did not go the rehab route. This means that sometimes, I will get physical cravings or thoughts which could lead to a drink. Being able to recognize the AV and debunk the beast immediately is really important for me.
I am the kind of alcoholic who completely isolate and drink alone, secretly. While I LOVE AA, the fellowship, listening and sharing experiences and laughter with others my beast wants me to be alone. My beast HATES AA so I make use of the meetings to vanquish it.
While I know that drinking is not a viable option for me anymore and that
I quit for good, when I struggle (which is rarely) being able to cut time into smaller chunks makes it easier...There is a Yoruba proverb which states:"it is bit by bit that we eat the head of the rat" sometimes when faced with something so big it freaks us out, it is a good idea to go a little bit at a time...especially important for me since I picked up after I was like F...it, whatever.
I also want quality sobriety in terms of being at peace with myself and content. The steps appeal to me and in the past, working them really helped.
There are many other methods to find inner peace and balance but I dig that approach.
AVRT and AA basically cover each other where for me (others are different) they might be lacking.

I wish I could have elaborated more but I tried to respect Rob's wish concerning this thread.

It isn't that AA and AVRT don't "play well together", it is more a matter of completely different paradigms. There are points that oppose each other, and within each paradigm lie the reasons why. There is no problem with anyone doing anything they want, and if it results in the desired result for them, then fab.

Although I do not "use" either per se, I have studied them both extensively. I do think that for purposes of discussion it's important to know why a point or strategy is in place within a given method. It's like if I'm discussing Christianity and I tell others, with full authority, that hey you can just decide what God's word is, or you can choose to believe in Heaven but not Hell, or whatever...um, that's not going to be well received. Sure people do it all the time, and it works great for people...but technically, it's not Christianity without certain basic tenets. Same with AA, AVRT, SMART, Celebrate Recovery, Lifering, WFS, etc. Doesn't mean it's not okay to individually interpret, to blend, to pick and choose...but in my opinion, it's important to truly understand the basic tenets of a method because if I choose very opposing methods, for instance making a BP but continuing to live without a drink a day at a time, then I might find myself frustrated or unsuccessful without really understanding why.

I'm with you in spirit, brother bigsombrero, but I don't think this forum's primary purpose is to improve a recovery process. It is to help addicts find ways to defeat their addiction(s). To that end it seems to have been determined that the Hatfield-McCoy feuds that AA-AVRT debates caused were, all things considered, a detriment to helping people defeat their addiction(s). Therefore, they are forbidden.

We can talk about AVRT and Rational Recovery, though. My biggest disappointment with the book Rational Recovery is that Mr. Trimpey never misses a chance to say something negative about the most popular recovery methods. To the point that I think it detracts from his otherwise brilliant work. I can see drawing some comparisons to promote your own ideas, but he really comes across as having a burr in his skivvies about the methods that didn't work for him. I found most of it unnecessary.

That's what is working today. I am open to learning more in the future that might change my opinion and/or direction. It's all about maintaining positive results.

I hope this helps you to understand, Big. :)

Yup.

:)

I used to think that too until I really understood what he was getting at in some of his points. There are some very valid points, even if at times his delivery is lacking. The more I looked into it unbiased, the less it appeared to me to be a personal vendetta. It's really less about what has failed him, and more about a system that really does need tweaking if people are to stop dying from addiction. I have no vested interest in seeing it that way, except for the purposes of my own education which is a hobby for me. I made the decision to quit in the nut ward with no knowledge of RR.

It's the same with other pieces of literature. There are times I have to plod through the style to glean the nuggets. I do find Trimpey to be somewhat batsh*t crazy, but I'm not looking to hang out and have lunch with the guy, shoot the breeze and maybe have a mani/pedi bonding moment. The same goes for Bill W. Many have objected to him in personal ways and still successfully followed the program he helped to found.

I once had an algebra teacher that rubbed me the wrong way, the toupe, the mannerisms, yuk...but man on man if I wanted to learn algebra, he was the man.

I agree Nonsensical—the AA bashing in the books was a big turnoff. It's like listening to someone rant about an ex. They're going on and on about how horrible the person is, while you sit there and silently wonder why they can't get over it, just let go and move on already, lol... But damn if those AVRT tools didn't make things easier for me. :)

Your view is much more charitable than mine. Providing the framework for an alternate approach—that's Trimpey's great constructive act. That's what saves lives. The pick, pick, picking at AA seemed unnecessary to me, a petty distraction at best. I totally understand the desire to rally the courts and other institutions to recognize there are effective alternatives to 12-step programs. But AA itself is a membership organization; if someone doesn't like fundamental components of AA, they shouldn't join AA. Problem solved! :)

But it's fascinating to me that sometimes they do, at least for you and a few others. Super cool. This has been a really interesting read today.

No. That forum is positive discussions about working 12 step programs from a secular point of view.

We do not criticize any program. That goes against the rules of SR as a whole.

Now back to the original post, I work both SMART and the steps of NA. They work wonderfully hand in hand. I was not in any means the only one working both programs.

Excellent illustration of my reaction. :)

I will add, though, that I might have to find a different group than the one I visited last Friday. That was a rather maudlin bunch. Shares within a group will tend to be negative thoughts and feelings. Not always, but tend towards that. Most people use group sharing to unburden; for catharsis. I get that. I have done that also. Currently, I am feeling very positive, so I am looking for a more upbeat experience. They were a bit too negative for my taste.