Don't know if anyone is familiar with the "Through The Wormhole" series with Morgan Freeman. It explores the Is there a creator question, space, time, consciousness, all of that type thing. Here's some of the episodes if anyones interested. : through the wormhole with morgan freeman - YouTube

Yeah, that series is awesomely well done and enjoyable. Informative and interesting for the layman. :)

If you don't call your "AV" a kind of AVRT AV, what else might you refer to it as? I'm curious is all, no big deal. I'm not calling you out, just interested since when you say above your "AV" has nothing to do with you actually wanting to drink.




oh, you should entirely call me out on stuff anytime; it makes me look at stuff anew, which is always a good thing.

anyway, been thinking about this, and have no definite answer. can't pinpoint how i see/experience it.
how odd!
closest i can come is "kneejerk reaction in the form of a voice-urge" or "there is me the drunk again!" or "ah, a crazy alcoholic thought!"
but no, i've not wanted to drink, and i've not battled or fought, and i haven't defeated anything.
so i can "hear" the gottagottawannadrink while being totally aware that i have no desire to drink, and i have no need to engage with the "voice" or to show it better logic or use anything against it; i just hang out there and try to see what's REALLY going on that might have hit the knee to make it jerk like that.

something like that.

not sure if that's akin to your alcoholic mind, but i could use that phrase easily with my own meaning/view.

"Alcoholic Mind", that's an interesting term. I think that encompassed my entire thought process in my drinking/using days. My alcoholic mind ran off of pride and fear, crazy tho it was often difficult to tell which one was running the show. Was my refusal to seek outside help based more on pride or fear, not really sure.

I watch this alot....its really interesting cause my son has pointed out that some of the references in the series are to obscure science (not sure I'm saying that right)...but for me much of it opens up about the things we are learning. The time thing is a big thing for me .... to me time is a human construct to organize data.

I find this sort of thing extremely helpful in dealing with my life and self. I encourage people to watch this sort of science show...although with a grain of salt...It brings out many things that physisists are struggling to understand and the complications.

Nands

The alcoholic mind. An awesome topic for discussion, yeah? :)

Like I had said a couple pages back, my AVRT Beast constantly feeds on my total embracement of the relative existence of my alcoholic mind, along with my chronic illness of arrested alcoholism. The resulting dynamic tensions playing across my psyche is, for me, very helpful in keeping me sharp and present as I continue to enjoy my non-drinking sober lifestyle.

I'm a supporter of the generalised idea and philosophy of Cartesian Dualism, as proposed / defined / defended by Rene Decartes - that the material body and the immaterial mind are totally different kinds of substances, and that the body could be subdivided but the mind/soul could not be further reduced or subdivided. Plato and Aristotle had already reasoned thousands of years earlier that the mind/soul could not be identified with the human body. Outstanding. Brilliant. Comforting.

Yeah, baby. A kind of awesome "spiritual" philosophic song to soothe my savage all-too-human-sized quantified Beast, and alcoholic mind, lol. :) Well, relatively speaking, of course, hahaha.

Cartesian Dualism, its all that and more. What's there not to love?!!

:nanarock

[QUOTE=BackToSquareOne;3874764]"Alcoholic Mind", that's an interesting term. I think that encompassed my entire thought process in my drinking/using days. My alcoholic mind ran off of pride and fear, crazy .......[QUOTE]


it was a term Rob used. i kind of assumed it was an AA-thing, but don't know.
what you say there is something i've wondered about a long time now.
and i think that's like ly so.
what happens to that "alcoholic mind" after we quit is another thing...if i see it as coming up in "voice-urges" then i have to see that i still have it, no?
that it's a more "essential" thing than "just" an entrenched pattern...
not trying to argue anything, just something i still wonder about.
because something is not settled in my mind about all this.

Cartesian Dualism, its all that and more. What's there not to love?!!

hahaHA; there's LOTS not to love in that!
but i'm not going there here.
can you talk more about what you mean by "relative existence" of your alcoholic mind?

If anyone really wants to make themselves crazy try wrapping your brain around "String Theory". : NOVA | The Elegant Universe: Series ...

You get 11 dimensions, parallel universes, all kind of really cool things. Trying to understand how all of the physics stuff "fits in" with higher powers and the more common belief systems is where it gets totally confusing.

I sure can! :)

Relative existence as opposed to absolute existence. Relative meaning, my alcoholic mind can not exist on its own merit or substance - it totally requires the existence of my alcoholism illness, and my own psyche. My alcoholic mind is also relative to my sober experiences, and so, my alcoholic mind has uniqueness as well as commonality with alcoholism within its manifestation, substance, and effects.

What the hell did I just say?! :)

Absolute existence. Wow. Don't you just get excited when pondering "relative vs absolute" ideals?

It can be very confusing when we don't allow for personal experiential experiences to be also valued and weighed in measured balance with established sciences and theoretical physics. At the center of the balance is the paradox: what is reality?

For me, "confusion" is mostly another word for green-lighting and developing an out-of-the-box approach to a more enriched and informed enlightenment of whatever.

Confusion is not entirely an uncomfortable experience, or at least, doesn't always have to simply be nothing but uncomfortable, imo.

Interesting because for someone like me, who does not believe in the "ism", I don't view myself as "alcoholic". I was addicted to alcohol when I drank it. Now I don't drink it, so I'm obviously not addicted to it. I would readdict if I drank it again, but there is nothing "deeper" about me that causes that to be so beyond just putting the booze in my body.

Funny you should say that about confusion Rob, because I often feel confused about things and I accept that as a part of my reality. I doesn't cause me alot of discomfort. Confusion means I'm thinking, and "I don't know" is a very acceptable answer.

Blimey! All this other "deep" "cerebral" stuff is about to make my brain explode. Just don't drink or use. All this other mind blowing hypothesizing is starting to sound like a bunch of AV mumbo jumbo to me.

I have headache, can you tell?:gaah

Seriously?

You're certainly welcome to your opinion, Received. Still, If you don't like what you're reading, in this thread or elsewhere, why read it to the point of complaint?

As for "just don't drink or use", no thanks. I can do much more then that, and without complaint.

mumbo jumbo, lol.

Rob,

Don't you just get excited when pondering "relative vs absolute" ideals?
uh....no. it makes my teeth hurt :)

you're saying your "alcoholic mind" is not "das Ding an sich", is that right? (will that throw you? likely not...but now i'm having FUN!!)
but: why would my "alcoholic mind" not be synonymous with my alcoholism? or is, in your dictionary, alcoholism not equivalent to alcoholic mind? hm...you subscribe to dualism, so: do you see what you term "my alcoholism illness" as a more physical thing and your "alcoholic mind" as separate from that?

BTSO: why would i need string theory to really drive myself crazy when i'm already doing a fine job with just the stuff above?

I kind of view "Alcoholic Mind" as my whole thought process in my drinking/using days. Once I got used to the altered states that alcohol/drugs provided I kind of lost the ability to find joy in the simple things.

I know that some people quit drinking/using and claim that everything is peaches and cream, rainbows and sunshine. My experience was the exact opposite, I didn't even get a "pink clouid" out of the deal. My first year was an exercise in learning to accept that what is, is. All of the Buddhist stuff was a big help in rediscovering happiness and peace of mind in the ordinary. I had depression issues going into quitting which were only made worse without the crutch of alcohol/drugs so my experience probably isn't that relavent to most people.

I kind of wonder if everyone didn't have different thought processes going on in their drinking days so maybe "Alcoholic Mind" could be a very individual thing. We all started into sobriety from a different mile marker so maybe that also has a big effect on everything. Just some random thoughts.

"The Thing in Itself." Yes, the alcoholic mind is not a thing in itself. It is not wholesome and healthy, as is a sober mind. The alcoholic mind is a sober mind taken over and made to submit to alcoholic madness and alcoholic illness.

Alcoholism illness empowered my alcoholic mind, and now it really can't, since my alcoholism is arrested and my alcoholic mind is asleep, that is, it is un-empowered.

My alcoholic illness is of mind, body, and spirit. I know of no realized cure for my illness. I can live with it being in remission, held in remission, and happily so by the health of my sober mind, body, and spirit.

I can't get into the exact step mechanics in this forum, but we all know my practice of the AA program affords me the required sober health to keep my alcoholism illness arrested.

Absolutely contingent on my spiritual health? In a word: NO.

For me, my spiritual health is contingent on my continued non-drinking sober lifestyle. First came quitting drinking, then came sobriety in my mind and body, then came the awesome unlimited spiritual power of my HP. :)

My HP serves spiritual sobriety. I do not serve my HP. I enjoy a spiritual freedom, I am not a slave to my own understanding of my spiritual freedom. I have made choices. Here I am. Sober minded and alcohol free.

I was getting those back in the '80s with Dungeons & Dragons.

And the original series Star Trek back in the '60's, re-runs even into today, and the spin-offs and the continuing cult phenomenon which has actually inspired real science outside the show, and promoted ideal civil rights practices for the future. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN-_VA5HFwM

Imagination and real science. Cool. :)

I believe we have a human mind...with it's limits and it's wonders.

Getting rid of the alchoholic cloud is only the first step. If I don't learn/expereince a new way of thinking....I am not really healing. I was miserable for many years in my first sobriety. I continued to try and sort out life. After a brief slip, I found sobriety again with the added aid of a way to sort out my human mind (for me it was buddhism, but that is not the only path).

I've come back today with a re-read of the introduction to a translation of the Lankavatara Sutra by DT Suzuki. It describes, for me, the brain functions interactions with sensory perceptions and how it can all go crazy LOL.

I believe that seeking an understanding of how I think and what my errors in thinking is help me to not only stay sober, but progress toward a life that seems to be important to me (as with any human).

I believe there is more commonality between my "different selves (alchoholic vs not drinking) and my connection to my human existance means I have more in common with my fellow humans. Yes! I am alchoholic! But much of my "suffering" is about being human....many of my fellow travelors who are not "alchoholic" suffer the same set backs and problems I do....I have the added part of alchoholism, but we are more the same then we are different.

Nands.