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Old 03-04-2013, 09:22 PM
  # 101 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RR:TNC pages 239-240
I studied the Beast and learned its nature and its ways. Then I attacked it with all of my intelligence. I finally learned that to defeat the Beast, I would first expose it, and then become like it. I have matched its ways in every respect.
The Beast has one goal, to drink forever.
So I shall have the opposite goal, never to drink.
The Beast is immortal and looks forward to an eternity of intoxicated "nows."
So I became timeless and made a Big Plan for eternal abstinence.
The Beast is not capable of change.
Nor am I susceptible to change my decision never to drink.
The Beast has access to all that I am.
But it is not me, and I am always in control.
The Beast is undeterred by pain.
So I will endure as much pain as necessary and never drink.
The Beast has no memory of pain.
So I may forget why I never drink.
The Beast is unreasoning in its quest for drink.
So I do not reason with it, or explain to it why I never drink.
The Beast will kill me in its quest for drink.
So I am perfectly willing to feel it dying.
The Beast is a tyrant, demanding its stuff.
So I will be a tyrant, and feel it cringe.
I have hunkered down to meet the Beast on its own turf, and by equaling it, I have won.

Am I now a Beast?

It would have me think so, but I am now free of the Beast that has ruled my life. I lived in its prison; now it lives in mine. I am a human being, freed from the chains of addiction, free to be myself, free to meet life on my own terms.

-- "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction" by Jack Trimpey Copyright 1996 by Jack Trimpey and Lois Trimpey
As exampled above, it is never good to allow the Beast any use of the first person personal pronoun "I" and this can not be overstated.

Separation is best achieved by selectively objectifying the Beast and all AV as simply "IT" to eliminate confusion.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:14 AM
  # 102 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
You are a non drinker. It is counting time and creating doubt.
It is also pretty brazenly using "I".
Very Brazen I must say... now that I see how it is working this "newest angle" I must be a bit more on top of it. Thanks Soberlicious
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:25 AM
  # 103 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
As exampled above, it is never good to allow the Beast any use of the first person personal pronoun "I" and this can not be overstated.

Separation is best achieved by selectively objectifying the Beast and all AV as simply "IT" to eliminate confusion.
The seperation is exactly where I am at in the book. Learning that it does have "access to all that I am" yet, seperating it's feelings from mine. It has definitely been difficult for me to figure out what I am REALLY feeling vs what it is feeling. Thanks Robby for the above post.

I am starting to see that it is using my emotions now.... not just my thoughts which were easier to monitor. Where as before I was seeing this "new depression" as a result of sobriey... I am now seeing it as my beast fighting for its life.

Thank you all for the responses and for calling me out on that irrational thinking. I needed to take a step back and take a look at what was happening in my head.

IMO, learning AVRT is a bit tricky in the beginning. BP is very concrete... I am glad I have one.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:06 AM
  # 104 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
I am starting to see that it is using my emotions now.... not just my thoughts which were easier to monitor. Where as before I was seeing this "new depression" as a result of sobriey... I am now seeing it as my beast fighting for its life.
My Beast initially used and abused my feelings and emotions without shame for IT's own cause, and I quickly discovered my difficulty in separating my feelings too. For me, the thoughts and 'thinkings' are all too obvious... separating IT's feelings and mine.... not so easy for me.

Eventually though, I learned what is what, and certainly now I rule and my stupid Beast drools, hahaha.

Awesome you're taking the time jkb, and making the effort, to get your own practice of AVRT locked down for YOU.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:17 AM
  # 105 (permalink)  
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Thanks Robby,
I have only figured out one way to know if it is me or my beast who is feeling whatever at the time. If I feel depressed, angry etc... (like I was) and then I really think about getting drunk and poof all better... its my beast.
That said I think you made an excellent point on your thread... I need to deal with the wanting to drink without getting all "bent out of shape". :rotfxko
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:14 PM
  # 106 (permalink)  
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I understand the concept of the REAL ME dissociating from the thoughts and cravings and general B/S that churns out of the addiction-corrupted Beast Brain. The problem I have had in these early stages of freedom from the addiction-corrupted Beast, is that the thoughts, and cravings, and automatic impulses to drink sometime have strong emotion in them, bringing turmoil that overwhelms my 'Rational' mind. Just because I made a Big Plan does not Automatically quiet these prompts from the Beast, which is sometimes more like SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER for a drink. I have been told by others that have been successful in maintaining their Abstinence that it does get 'easier' after a while. So...I have had to make my BIG PLAN into a BIG COMMITMENT, that I consciously CHOOSE to focus on and remind myself of, when the Beast is SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER, or whispering VERY seductively.
For these times, which can be difficult in my early stage of 'FREEDOM', I have CONSCIOUSLY CHOSEN to DRIVE A STAKE IN THE GROUND CALLED SOBRIETY, and CHAIN MYSELF TO IT LIKE A DOG. That is a Conscious Choice which I have made with my 'Rational' mind, so that it can be a point of focus, to remember the IMPORTANCE OF MY BIG PLAN when the clamor and turmoil seem overwhelming. When the going gets easier, and I have tamed the Beast within, I will remove the Chains and walk in Freedom. The stake in the ground will still be there...it is in fact MY BIG PLAN.
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:49 PM
  # 107 (permalink)  
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Repeat after me: I don't want to drink. IT wants to drink. IT is not I.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:38 PM
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The BP didn't quite down my AV. What it did do was ramp it up something awful and continuous, really allowing for me to clearly recognise IT talking to me with AV, and me thinking to myself that no way I'll ever agree with that crap ever again.

Eventually, after recognising the same drivel time and time again, I became indifferent and finally I would dissociate myself from any repetitive AV, and only new AV would catch my inner awareness and attention, but when it did, and does, my AV is anything but a whisper when new AV is discovered. Same old AV is routinely just auto-dismissed. The volume of such dismissals is akin to background noise I suppose, but certainly not silent.

AV is certainly just a normal part of my thinking now, the thing is of course, I recognise my AV as in fact AV, and not MY thinking. Can be a bit complicated for those who don't appreciate actual AV, but it really couldn't be simpler to recognise AV once a BP is in place.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:45 AM
  # 109 (permalink)  
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The beast in me
is caged by frail and fragile bars


Your tag line got me thinking about my previous post. Yes, the Beast in me is a RABID ANIMAL, that through years of being fed whatever it wanted, now does not want to stay in its place and follow along with the Big Plan of its' frail and frazzled 'Master'.
So, I realize I have actually driven that Stake-in-the-Ground I call Sobriety, and I have CHAINED MY BEAST to it like a DOG!!!! When it lunges out-of-control to get its' desires fed, 'I' recognize the CHAIN and I can say, Bark, Growl, and Scream Bloody Murder all you want, you can't get any further because you are Chained to my Big Plan, which is my COMMITMENT to SOBRIETY and ABSTINENCE.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:23 AM
  # 110 (permalink)  
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So, after a strange evening in my head last night... here I am. I was very content yesterday in my plan to go home, relax and watch a movie. No big deal... right? 5 0'clock gets there and my mind is going insane. Thoughts of why I quit drinking. Now one of my main motivators to quit drinking was the dreaded hangovers so I think about those but, cant remember a hangover. Then I test myself with thoughts of drinking to see if this is just beast? Can't really remember "feeling drunk". So...

I move on to taking a bath and all I can think is what the hell... I cant remember anything.. good or bad in regards to years of my drinking. I tried pulling up specific horrible morning after moments and although I could remember what happened I could no longer remember the hell I was feeling in that moment. So I tried happy drunk moments and could remember the events but not the "happy".

So, on to making dinner and at this point now I am confused. Then the thought comes: "You never really had that bad of a problem with drinking. Sure when you were younger you had issues... but, in the past few years it has only been a few bad decisions here and there. No Big Deal".

Right now I am still trying to be very leery of my thoughts and of beast activity. I know it may sound strange because I know the beast is a part of me however, I feel as if my beast is planning a sneak attack... Because after all these "strange thoughts" I sat down and watched the movie. I never had to fight the urge to drink. I decided "well if I didn't have a problem ok alcohol isnt healthy in the quantities I consumed and I dont want to try and most likely fail at moderation...AGAIN.. so I am not going to buy alcohol."
That was that.

So, I dont know what the point of this is... I guess the memories are kind-of fading but, I wish they would stay around so I could remember how bad it was. Like when someone dies and you realize you cant remember the sound of thier voice.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:42 AM
  # 111 (permalink)  
 
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I guess the memories are kind-of fading but, I wish they would stay around so I could remember how bad it was.
p. 122 of The New Cure talks about this ("Why can't I remember the pain?") I thought this was interesting in relation to what you are saying:
In RR, it is unnecessary to to exhume past horrors to deter future drinking or using. You can do what is natural and gradually forget them. When we say, "Close the book on that sorry chapter of your life," we mean it. In AVRT, pain is only a means to an end-permanent abstinence. Pain is the classroom for AVRT, but eventually school is out.
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:00 PM
  # 112 (permalink)  
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It is so relevant and true Soberlicious... it just seems it was easier to have those memories to fall back on. Early sobriety is just hard.....
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:25 PM
  # 113 (permalink)  
 
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I know it is...you are right.

I'm going to do something I've never done...a cyber hug (LOL I usually make fun of them)...
(((((jkb)))))

Hang in there. You got this.
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Old 03-10-2013, 01:33 PM
  # 114 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by trachemys View Post
Repeat after me: I don't want to drink. IT wants to drink. IT is not I.




That's exactly what mindfulness teaches, you are not your thoughts and you don't have to act on any of them. It doesn't seem to matter how one quits, given enough time the obsession fades away to little more than a passing thought. It almost seems like all addictions are learned behaviors that are unlearned over time.

The catch 22 for me always was in thinking that this one night out wouldn't matter. In my case that one innocent episode was always enough to relight the candle. The brains pathways of addiction are quickly reignited and you're back off to the races. For some reason this does not happen in a person who doesn't easily addict to the substance.

The beauty of considering yourself a non drinker is that there is no debate to be had, you simply don't drink, now or ever.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:28 PM
  # 115 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
It is so relevant and true Soberlicious... it just seems it was easier to have those memories to fall back on. Early sobriety is just hard.....
Yes, "forgetting" is one of the AVRT "ideas or perks" if you will, which I don't subscribe too. My choice. I remember enough pain for a lifetime, and I'm grateful for those memories. Its not like a resentment, its not a hateful re-experiencing. There were times I was concerned my present anger would reveal earlier hidden hate, or even create hatred from unresolved issues, but I was wrong, my love for living sober and free allows me to examine and embrace again and again my past hurts and pains with compassion, and yes, sometimes anger too.

I'm sorry you're feeling a perhaps bit lost over this Jess. I wanted you to know that it is possible to remember plenty, and too of course stay happily sober/non-drinker. I guess it's just a matter of personal choice for any of us.

Be well, Jess. Take it easy, and be good to yourself.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:41 PM
  # 116 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
The catch 22 for me always was in thinking that this one night out wouldn't matter. In my case that one innocent episode was always enough to relight the candle. The brains pathways of addiction are quickly reignited and you're back off to the races.
I lived that just recently. I quit last month. Lasted about ten days then convinced myself I could have a couple of glasses of wine. Last weekend it was a couple of five liter boxes of wine and a half gallon of vodka. Got (externally) motivated, found RR and this place

I will never drink again and I won't change my mind.
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:26 PM
  # 117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Yes, "forgetting" is one of the AVRT "ideas or perks" if you will, which I don't subscribe too. My choice. I remember enough pain for a lifetime, and I'm grateful for those memories. I wanted you to know that it is possible to remember plenty, and too of course stay happily sober/non-drinker.
Yes, it's a strategy that works for many.

I understood jkb to mean that she was unable to remember the pain, but wishes she could call it up again. So it's not that she's choosing not to recall, or that anyone thinks she should choose not to recall, but rather that she is frustrated because the memory is fading and that memory made it easier for her to abstain when the pain was fresh. I just wanted her to know that if she cannot recall, she needn't be scared that it means she will drink again. Maybe I misunderstood.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:50 PM
  # 118 (permalink)  
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I don't think you misunderstood jkb's meaning, soberlicious. Some people want to forget alot, others don't. I was simply sharing my own experiences on my choosing to remember some painful times, and so suggesting to her that it is possible.

Your affirming that if she can't remember what she wants, jkb can of course remain a successful non-drinker is something I'm in agreement with too.

Simply choosing to remember does not in fact always equate with total and detailed recall, is my experience. There are also many memories which have faded for me since quitting drinking too.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:11 AM
  # 119 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
That's exactly what mindfulness teaches, you are not your thoughts and you don't have to act on any of them. It doesn't seem to matter how one quits, given enough time the obsession fades away to little more than a passing thought. It almost seems like all addictions are learned behaviors that are unlearned over time.

The catch 22 for me always was in thinking that this one night out wouldn't matter. In my case that one innocent episode was always enough to relight the candle. The brains pathways of addiction are quickly reignited and you're back off to the races. For some reason this does not happen in a person who doesn't easily addict to the substance.

The beauty of considering yourself a non drinker is that there is no debate to be had, you simply don't drink, now or ever.
I do study mindfulness some and I agree wholeheartedly with the above. Thanks....
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:25 AM
  # 120 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Yes, it's a strategy that works for many.

I understood jkb to mean that she was unable to remember the pain, but wishes she could call it up again. So it's not that she's choosing not to recall, or that anyone thinks she should choose not to recall, but rather that she is frustrated because the memory is fading and that memory made it easier for her to abstain when the pain was fresh. I just wanted her to know that if she cannot recall, she needn't be scared that it means she will drink again. Maybe I misunderstood.
You hit the nail on the head. Of-course, as you know my sobriety is not contingent on anything at all other than not drinking but, it did help to just say "oh that night/morning was terrible... why would I reapeat that". Now I guess it is no longer about "getting sober" it is about maintaining it when the memories are no longer "painful and fresh".... and yeah Robby I thought I would love to forget alot of this stuff but, now I am just having a hard time saying "it was that bad"...when my beast is saying "you dont remember it as that bad because it wasnt". Oh well, it is what it is...

((((soberlicious)))) it was a very much needed cyber-hug.... thank you.

And thank you all... Jess
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