fini

If someone is successfully staying sober, then I have something I can learn from them.
i so agree, Jazzfish. and have been puzzled for quite a while by what seem like such false "divisions", and assumptions about where people "should" participate.

in my years of hanging around forums, i've seen these to be wrong assumptions:
-if you're "religious", you will go to AA, as if you're "religious", you will inevitably believe that God will help keep you sober.
-if you're "religious", you cannot, ultimately, be rational.
-if you're not a theist, or if you're an atheist, you will want the secular recovery options.
this is just a little of all the assumptions out there.

i've noticed, for example, that when i say that yeah, i'm powerless over alcohol, that it's often assumed that "ah, she's one of those....must be AA". it's assumed, often, that i don't think i have choices to make.
whereas if i say that i'm neither a "religious person" nor a theist , then the assumption is made, often, that the secular sites will have more to say to me.
both these are false assumptions, false dichotomies.

Hanna

Humility.

Not Religious Humility.

Just...Humility.

tehmazzyland

Sometimes when reading threads from people expressing problems with not drinking, the proseltiyiisgnt(sp?) posts along the lines of 'leave it to God' etc make me a little uncomfortable. But heck, they're saying what worked for them - and if it helps someone else then shucks, good on 'em.

Having read through the thread it seems the OP might have been subjected to criticisms of their secular beliefs - and although I didn't go see where/what happened... if I got criticised for my own non-AA, non-theist approach... oooh I'd be p*ssed off too.

(PS I'm more of a flying spaghetti monster person. Because frog unicorns are clearly just silly.)

soberlicious

I agree with you fini, assumptions are made all the time and often people think if you think "X", then you must also think "Y" and "Z". There was a thread in the GLBTQ forum about the same thing, except it was about assumed heterosexuality and how frustrating that can be on a daily basis.

I think we all make assumptions on some level because we are human, but it is exactly how most misunderstandings happen.

On a different note...I was thinking about this thread yesterday because of something recent that happened to me. I was in a store in line with my son who has autism. He was having a rough day and was exhibiting some "behaviors". Over the years, it's quite common for people to look shocked, move away, or even feel free to add their .02 about his behaviors. His self injurious behaviors can be a little scary for people sometimes and I get that, but can't always catch it in time. Anyway...I have been raising him for 15 years and it is what it is. He is a beautiful child, and I have easily learned to detach from when society is judgemental and un/misinformed. I realize it is a combination of ignorance and fear and it's ok. Anyway...long story already too long, but back to my point as it relates to the OP.

As I was getting him up from rolling on the floor of the store (he's big and this can be a chore), a woman came and put her arm on mine. She said,"May I ask your name?" I told her and she said, "I am going to pray for you tonight. I am a mother too." She looked me directly in my eyes. and the power of that interaction was hard to describe.

I could have said "Oh no thanks, I don't believe in God and God is not going to cure his autism and you're none too bright if you rely on God to solve your problems." But had I shared my beliefs I would have missed the point. The point was one heart to another, one hand to another, one brief moment that made a difference, regardless of the words that were uttered.

At the risk of sounding fluffy...which I am not, the only true power in this world is love.

Received

Great post, soberlicious.

For me, whether theist or non-theist, had nothing to do with pouring alcohol down my throat and therefore nothing to do with deciding to never drink again.

Admittedly, when I read someone post "I am powerless over alcohol" my knee jerk thought is hmmm, AA. I believe this is likely due to years of former conditioning.

You posted, "She looked me directly in my eyes. and the power of that interaction was hard to describe". That kind of interaction transcends all belief systems to bring one back to the very core of life, which is indeed, the power of love.

RobbyRobot

:ghug3

fini

soberlicious,
yes, yes to often people think if you think "X", then you must also think "Y" and "Z". . exactly.

and a fluffy yes to your "story" (why do i want to add that i'm not flyffy, either?? because the assumption is that if you're fluffy, you're also......fill in the dots).
couple of years ago i had spinal surgery, and someone said he'd pray for me. my reaction was as yours: nothing there i can't and don't appreciate. that person's "seeing" me, thinking about me and my situation, putting effort into wishing me well. it's a wonderful thing, regardless whether i share the belief in the efficacy of prayer.

fini

Admittedly, when I read someone post "I am powerless over alcohol" my knee jerk thought is hmmm, AA. I believe this is likely due to years of former conditioning.

Received,
i spent a couple of years sober on a secular recovery forum before i came to that conclusion. no former conditioning whatsoever from AA; quite the opposite. had spent oodles of years convinced that i should have power and control over alcohol and drinking.

haha, quite blew my mind, really, when i finally saw it.
cosmic joke. kind of.

AtATotalLoss

"(PS I'm more of a flying spaghetti monster person. Because frog unicorns are clearly just silly.)"

LOL I am an artist. I now want to draw these things....

tehmazzyland

I remember seeing a program about atheism presented by Dawkins and he told the story of his friend, another academic atheist, who'd been in a car accident (or something) and ended up in a coma.

When he came round his family were there and they told him they'd prayed for him. To which his reply was (apparently) "Gee thanks. Did you also sacrifice a goat?"

Taking the story to be reasonably true I was struck by a couple of things. First, pretty amazing presence of mind to come up with that quip straight out of a coma. Kudos. But second - how ungrateful. Un-kudos.

As the saying goes - it's the thought that counts.

My grandma has at times prayed for me, and while we don't share beliefs (even after taking her personal brand of crazy conspiracy theory christianity into account)(it's pretty unique stuff) I have never been anything but utterly grateful and humbled by her strength of love. I would never (I hope) say anything disparaging about her prayers, as what they mean to her, means a lot to me.

But I've also met people who expressed pity for those who didn't share their beliefs... which makes me mad.

Still... my money's on this whole shebang being some sort of very very advanced computer simulation designed by uber-clever alien programmers with an evil sense of humour. (And I occasionally shake my fist at the sky, and mutter "You b*stards"... )

Received

I had never been to a recovery forum much less a secular one. I was strictly drawing on my 8 year experience spent elsewhere which was where I first heard it and continued to hear it on a nearly daily basis, thus my belief that it is due to former conditioning.

Just my little 'ol experience.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Fandy

i dislike the quotes in Newcomers that constantly quote religion, i think it is intrusive.

it is not anyone's place to preach their program.

freshstart57

You might like this then, it's called The Egg, by Andy Weir.

BillyWeaver

Thats why this site is so awesome. There is a different forum for all types.

Plus we all have/had on major goal in mind. To stop using. Its kind of amazing actually, I dont even really know any of the people on these forums/chat rooms but I can talk and discuss with them like they are my friends.

RobbyRobot

HAHAAHAAA!
TOO FUNNY!!

Thanks. Nice one, lol.

nycguy83

Hee hee, thanks for speaking your mind.

Today on HuffingtonPost, there was an article on a NYC judge upholding a ban on the ancient Jewish Orthodox practice of having an elderly priest called a Mohel use his mouth to suction off the newly sliced foreskin of an infant, which has led to several recent deaths in New York as the newborns developed fatal herpes.

In the ensuing melee, someone defended the Mohel practice, claiming that we must respect others beliefs, bec they have held them for millennia, to which I responded:

“I respect the people, but not their harmful or erroneous beliefs. That something has been believed for millennia does not make it a) true, or b) beneficial.

For example, for thousands of years most people thought the earth was flat, stationary, orbited by the sun and stars, and at the center of the universe. However in the past 500 years scientists have proven that the earth is a sphere, orbiting the sun which in turn orbits around the galactic center, which is also moving through space, and the sun is but one of several hundred trillion stars in this galaxy, which is only one of several hundred trillion observable galaxies in the known universe."

Secular humanist quote for the day:

"Suppose a man can convince me of error and bring home to me that I am mistaken in thought or act; I shall be glad to alter, for the truth is what I pursue, and no one was ever injured by the truth, whereas he is injured who continues in his own self-deception and ignorance." -Marcus Aurelius

mecanix

Strange i should see this thread as i've been reading the "jefferson bible". It's a very short book .

I tend to fall into AA style language as i wonder how different the experience would be for the person reading my posting if i decribed my own ideas and beliefs in that given post . I just imagine all my posts would turn into extremely long dull stream of concious style affairs , that would just go on and on, on and on, as i dissapear into my own reveries and introspections upon a subject which seemingly most people have made up their minds upon already and are more into expressing their own ideas or borrowing someone elses ideas whom impressed them at some time, at some point in thier lives and in doing so afirming their own beliefs, sence of self, identity and wellbeing within a social group by having aproval and understanding from people of a similar Weltanschauung.

I do try to avoid doing that and favour the concise over the obtuse in my postings for the sake of brevity, freshness and clarity of support to my fellow drunks in need .

bestwishes, M

instant

Do you mean The frog unicorn 'of your understanding'

Getting angry and frustrated with others who don't share your level of insight and wisdom can be damaging for your health, and may pose a distraction to your ongoing recovery

nycguy83

True, you have to pick your battles. There's a time and place for healthy debate.

But a specifically-secular recovery forum is as good a place as any to express one's dissatisfaction with the faith-based addiction treatment modality that is currently wildly dominant in the good 'ol US of A.

instant

Fair enough I am not in the USA , but I watched 28 days, ( LOL so I am an expert) and I find the court mandated treatment stuff weird ( assuming it is truly like that). I get that people can have a poor experience with some people and groups that does not further their recovery.

I always find it interesting that people get hung up on how the vocal amongst us interpret and promote the God of their understanding. with respect to the OP rationality and science can be his higher power if he chooses.