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Old 12-05-2012, 08:18 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by applecake View Post
I hope you'll cut me some slack here. When I deliberately chose to use the word "initial" before Big Plan I was trying to be forthright about the fact that I am having to regroup and start over.
Actually, from my experience, you've already done 95% of the work (trials and tribulations) of quitting for good. All you've got to do now is the "for good" part. You've suffered the agonizing consequences of drinking; you believe any more drinking is wrong for you; you've tasted the fruits of abstinence; and now all you have to do is guarantee it all with a Big Plan. Making the BP takes from ten seconds to a minute or so as the Abstinence Commitment Effect may sweep over you with an emotional rush, or give the feeling of a huge weight being lifted, or give you a whole new optimism when thinking about the future.

Honesty is the best policy, right? I get that in the truest form of RR, my Big Plan must not have really been a Big Plan since I only made it a little over a month.
To make it clear, you might better describe it as "...my first quitting plan must not have really been a Big Plan..."

I tend to do better at all things in life if I have the opportunity to anticipate what I might be facing and prepare for it.
Of course, this is how we make our lives good.

I'd like to think I would have made it through those parties [without pouring alcohol in my mouth and swallowing it] if I'd walked in and all they had was wine and tap water,
I put in the "without pouring alcohol in my mouth and swallowing it" because that's what you mean in this sentence, but your Beast doesn't want you to declare the obvious - the simplicity of what it is you're choosing never to do again. There's absolutely NOTHING about pouring alcohol in your mouth and swallowing that YOU do not have ABSOLUTE control over.

Once I 'got' AVRT, I was actually grateful that the problem had to do with voluntarily ingesting substances. I cannot think of a 'problem' that is not so absolutely under my own control - keeping a few specific chemical compounds out of my bloodstream. WOW! Thank you FATE!

Then IT says "But what about that DEEP PLEASURE?" Wahhh, wahhh, wahhh!

but I definitely wouldn't have enjoyed them very much.
Now here's where I see you taking "the opportunity to anticipate what you might be facing", and you could decide to spend that time some other way - not to avoid drinking, but because it sounds like you don't enjoy socializing with tipsy people.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:12 AM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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I'll cut you some slack, applecake, for sure.

I see nothing wrong with anticipating potential obstacles and planning how they will be handled. To me, that is just another tool that can be used to significantly enhance a Big Plan.

I do know one thing, though. I will be hesitant to post much detail about any failures or doubts in the future, since clearly they are all AV, not part of AVRT, and may be subject to nit-picking. Now I understand why there isn't much in-depth discussion on this forum about what happens when one fails.

Perhaps I hi-jacked the thread when I started talking in a more general sense, rather than through the technical lens of AVRT. I don't know. But, I will continue to read and learn from those who are successful until I 'get' it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:02 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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hiya,, its me again,,,,lol
i totally get your game plan apple,, and i did the same,,, its bloody hard keeping up with this av lark innit??
just sometimes ,, we do what we feel is right,,, it dont matter that it aint in the bloody book.
i did the same when i was on ummm,,, (naughty but im gonna say it ) 2 WEEKS,, and i went to a comedy gig,,, i took my own juice,, and loadsa sweeties and choccie!!,, i stood with my hubby at the bar,,, no problemo,,, yeh so i had a gameplan,, so what,,, it got my through my v first outing ,, where i may add, absolutley everyoune had a drink in hand,,, and thats all that matters, hunny.
we were having a good ole chinwag yesterady on chat werent we?
and if it feels right for you ,, then it is,, as some wise person sadi to me,,. LOL
also oakwood,, thank god you changed the direction,,,, i was beginning to feel all alone,,, lol
you girlies rock,,, and thats all there is too it OK?
keep smiling,,, for the sun will come out ,,, tomorrow,, bet yr bottom dollar,, that,,, tom,,,,,,,,,lol
lv cleo xxx

ps,,, ME AND ROBBY MADE UP ,,,, xxxxxxx
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:08 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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now ,,, isnt it better here?? bit more busy now innit ??
LOL
keep it up,,, this is the place to be right here,, right now,,,

im gonna post a silly joke,,, every day here,, just to get peeps on here,,, it needs livening up,, agree anyone??
come on? we all need a giggle,, even if its bloody pointless and not in the book.LOL
OK,, IM GONNA START IT OFF,, AND I DONT CARE WHO TELLS ME OFF ,,,(robby,, not you eh?? cos we is bezzies now yeh?? )
and im gonna stop writing LOL, ive made my big plan,,, im working it through,,, and i tink
i can do this,,, but i need support ok guys and gals? lo agghhhhhhhhhhhh
i relapsed,,, ok,,, dusting me self off,,,,,,, ok,,, deep breath,,, ok,, the time i s now,,,, i tattooed the watch onto my right wrist last nite,,, so i know the time ,,,,,,,
i aint gonna let this beat me,,,
lv cleo xxxxxxxxxxxx
i know im childish,,, thats the point xxx
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:58 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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I like to give personal examples I've experienced, but AVRT is what it is. I'm just the messenger. (Imagine the song "Ghost BBusters" here) BEAST BUSTERS!!! (song) BEAST BUSTERS!!!
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:07 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
It's my Big Plan that protects all the rest of the other plans I make in life to progress and expand, and, ALL BY ITSELF, THE BIG PLAN ABSOLUTELY INSURES I DO NO FURTHER DRINKING/DRUGGING - not the other way around. I do not need "game plans" to keep from drinking.

With a Big Plan in place, it was certainly logical to decide not to go to bars, some parties, see some old drinking friends, etc. - but that logical decision making had nothing to do with fear of MY having any anxiety. Using AVRT I knew it was the Beast that had anxiety if went to those places. IT would be salivating, but I would not be concerned because my Big Plan had predetermined that I would not drink/drug in ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
My Big Plan is alive and well, and I don't need "game plans" to keep from drinking. However, me taking on any other ways forward after my Big Plan is in place, these other ways forward are NOT "game plans", no matter how detailed or over-the-top they may seem or actually be, to any or all other observers of my behaviors.

Also, my Big Plan, in itself, doesn't protect me from drinking. My Big Plan simply and solely creates for me unlimited opportunity to practice my AVRT skills, AND empowers me with artistic license to live my sans-alcohol life free of conditions to keeping myself a non-drinker.

Big Plan:
A transcending personal commitment to unconditional, permanent abstinence. The reasons for making a Big Plan can vary between individuals.
Yeah. Totally. Big Plans can and do have amazing and fantastic variance between individuals.

For example:

I decide I'll go to a small informal party, which serves alcoholic beverages. I take a friend/date, and we bring our own beverage to drink. We politely refuse all offers of alcoholic beverages, drink our own beverage, enjoy ourselves, and we eventually leave.

No problem with AVRT. No problem with my Big Plan. No problem with my AV. No problem with my Beast. And most importantly, no problem with myself, lol.

It makes absolutely no difference that I planned what to bring. My Big Plan has no conditions attached with it, so either way it matters not what I bring or don't bring (ie plan or don't plan)

This is important to carefully consider: Big Plans are totally unconditionally created and honored. We have no need to be concerned about so-called "game plans", simply because they have zero effect against a Big Plan, and my AVRT, and zero effect against me living a happy and successful alcohol free life. In fact, simply believing so-called "game plans" even exist as a danger to my Big Plan or my continued abstinence; that belief in and of itself is pure AV. Speaking from MY experience, of course.

As well, the only and single "thing" which keeps me from drinking is absolutely and simply MY decision to now never drink again. And to never change my mind. This decision can be morphed into a Big Plan as defined by AVRT. It can also, at the end-of-the-day, simply be a decision to live as a non-drinking individual. It really is totally up to the individual just how deeply they want to get into AVRT. Many people have never heard of AVRT, and they still nonetheless are authentic and genuine non-drinkers.

My Big Plan in place simply allows me to selectively "see and hear" my AV so I can effectively enjoy being decisively separated from my Beast and my AV.

That's all it does.

For me to say my abstinence is conditional on my Big Plan, is to say my Big Plan has attached conditions. This would have the same effect as invalidating my Big Plan. So, it turns out, after some thought, I have little agreement with you GT, in your comments to Applecake. No problemo. It's not required we have agreement.

Interesting thread to be sure, lol.

WOW.

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Old 12-06-2012, 07:34 AM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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hiya xxx wow,, between us all here weve certainly livened this place up ,, thats for sure eh??
good on us xxxx
im detemined to be the last poster in this thread,, for however long i can xxxx
hehehe ,xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:43 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Also, my Big Plan, in itself, doesn't protect me from drinking.
By definition, a Big Plan does, in itself, protect anyone from drinking in the future.

My Big Plan simply and solely creates for me unlimited opportunity to practice my AVRT skills,
The Big Plan is the age old pledge "I will never drink again." Before AVRT was developed, millions used the pledge to quit for good.

AND empowers me with artistic license to live my sans-alcohol life free of conditions to keeping myself a non-drinker.
Yes, exactly, The Big Plan empowers me, free of conditions, to be permanently abstinent.

Big Plan:
A transcending personal commitment to unconditional, permanent abstinence. The reasons for making a Big Plan can vary between individuals.
Yeah. Totally. Big Plans can and do have amazing and fantastic variance between individuals.
I believe this confuses "reasons for making a Big Plan" with "Big Plans". Big Plans are incredibly precise and similar.

For me to say my abstinence is conditional on my Big Plan, is to say my Big Plan has attached conditions. This would have the same effect as invalidating my Big Plan.
Abstinence is not conditional on a Big Plan, but that's a whole 'nother topic anyway. There are people who do it one day at a time and end up never having another drink by the time they die. For me, I decided I didn't want to do it that way.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:49 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Thanks, GT.

Your recent post, selectively quoting me, dosen't change anything for me about what you said or are now saying relative to Big Plans. We don't agree. Not a big deal, yeah?
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:55 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Hehehehe
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:57 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by oakwood View Post
I'll cut you some slack, applecake, for sure.
I do know one thing, though. I will be hesitant to post much detail about any failures or doubts in the future, since clearly they are all AV, not part of AVRT, and may be subject to nit-picking. Now I understand why there isn't much in-depth discussion on this forum about what happens when one fails.
I'm sorry, oakwood. If it helps, I was throttled in the chatroom by two AA folks yesterday morning. Never saw it coming, since I wasn't discussing RR or AVRT or even AA.

I think the disconnect here is that this is a pretty cerebral place on this site. I'm learning a lot, but I don't have the emotional energy to really sink in and be academic yet, much less engage in debate. In fact, I'm on leave from grad school. I'm still exhausted. I do know, though, that I have a tendency to be far harder on myself than anyone else, and I need to just learn to be comfortable in my own skin. Being able to recognize and separate out the AV does make me feel much better about myself and whatever crazy cravings pop up.

My fear with this approach has been that one time when I won't be able to recognize AV, which is why I've tried to anticipate potential scenarios. What is the saying? Forewarned is forearmed? It doesn't feel very good, but I do think the analyses of comments by the veterans is helpful in learning to see subtle AV. These discussions kind of remind me of discussions in the public choice or political economy subfields within political science. Very rational--but spirited!
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:21 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by applecake View Post
...
Being able to recognize and separate out the AV does make me feel much better about myself and whatever crazy cravings pop up.

My fear with this approach has been that one time when I won't be able to recognize AV, which is why I've tried to anticipate potential scenarios. What is the saying? Forewarned is forearmed?
For me, the Big Plan took away that fear of not recognizing the AV. Even right now, as I "anticipate potential scenarios", the Big Plan actually delivers a double barreled whammy to the Beast and its AV.

First barrel - I know I cannot retract my Big Plan and my Beast knows it, too. End of story.

Second barrel - When I think maybe I'm not sure if some thought or feeling is my AV, all I have to do to find out is repeat the Big Plan slowly to myself - "I ... will ... never ... drink ... again!" and it invariably flushes out the AV from the rest of me. It's like putting on infra-red goggles to light up the heat sources in darkness. Yep, there it is. One particular type of AV is the lack of confidence at being successful with a Big Plan. Yep, there it is.

When I quit for good, the loss of that unique deep pleasure of drinking alcohol created a set of emotions, thoughts, and dreams that fit the description of a grief response. There was a visceral sadness of death there in the background that occasionally attempted a resurrection, but I had experimented enough to know this time there was NO going back.

When I would wake up from drinking dreams about a year or two after quitting, I would remember things as I slowly woke up that I could not access any other way. That made me realize there was a whole bank of memories inside my head that was fading away. As a binge drinker, the whole thirteen year long life of altered-state-me had been running parallel to the unaltered-state-me, and IT was dying and I was experiencing IT dying, but I refused to resurrect IT.

While I remember a lot of emotions and self-talk around "anticipating potential drinking scenarios" soon after quitting, it didn't take too long before I was able to immediately shoot them all down within seconds of their coming to mind, and today I find it laughable that my Beast of booze/drugs could ever gain a foothold in my thinking.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:10 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by applecake View Post
My fear with this approach has been that one time when I won't be able to recognize AV, which is why I've tried to anticipate potential scenarios. What is the saying? Forewarned is forearmed? It doesn't feel very good, but I do think the analyses of comments by the veterans is helpful in learning to see subtle AV.
With a Big Plan in place, AV is easily recognised. You can be confident with yourself going forward that AV in and of itself cannot get you back to drinking. We have nothing to fear from our AV.

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique provides for us the ideal means to separate from our Beast. In the separation we discover not only the hidden face of our Beast, so to speak, we also discover first-hand we are not our Beast. How awesome is that, lol!!

We powerfully discover we are fully our human selves. We are not harmed by our AV, and we are not harmed by any fears we may have of future drinking created by our AV, because all thoughts, ideas, feelings of anything which suggests future drinking is in fact nothing more then simply more of the same AV.

AV is always just my Beast barking at me to get back to drinking and get drunk. There is not alot there for me to deeply analyse. Different attempts are made to convince me, and these attempts are always recognised by me 100% of the time, no problemo. It's impossible for me to somehow not recognise my AV whenever I practice my AVRT.

It's all just to simple to screw up. No matter how my AV may be worded, imaged, or felt, it simply nonetheless is only my Beast barking at me with the same message -- get myself drunk.

It's this wonderful simplicity of what constitutes AV which ensures my successful separation of my Beast and I.

The practical degree of separation is unimportant for being able to achieve and sustain a healthy abstinence. There is no magical water-line which must be met to enjoy qualified separation. We need not be bothered about having a requirement to have full awareness of our entire lock, stock, and barrel of AV suggestions available to the Beast to attempt to get us back to drinking. Who cares if the metaphoric kitchen sink is thrown at us? hahaha.

We can safely recognise and then dismiss or otherwise become indifferent to whatever AV is being recognised. We don't need to somehow keep recognising greater and greater instances of AV. Simple recognition of any AV is sufficient to enjoy separation.

Forget fear. Enjoy freedom. It's always been our respective Beast which got drunk before, not you or me. With separation, the Beast has no physical means to actually become drunk, so it's game over for the Beast. The true goal with practicing AVRT is achievement of separation, yeah?

So, relax applecake, and enjoy the separation of you and your Beast as real experiential evidence of the veracity of your AVRT. No problemo!!

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Old 12-07-2012, 09:26 PM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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Good stuff everyone. I like Applecake's description of this section being a "cerebral place". I have never thought so much about my mind, how it works, even my thoughts in general, as I have over the past month or so. It is this singular section of SR that has changed me so profoundly.

As I am relatively new to the whole AVRT process, I am planning on avoiding certain events during this silly season. <- is this AV? I don't think it is.

Its not that I fear or have doubts about me drinking, rather I just don't want to deal with people pestering me or pressing me why I am not drinking or take the incessant invitations to drink. It is really rather annoying when someone intoxicated keeps harping on it. Which I have already experienced.

I also really don't enjoy being around tons of people. In hindsight, I guess I have always had a certain level of agoraphobia / claustrophobia. Going to large sporting events or places with huge crowds has always freaked me out. Even parties in constrained environments bother me. I prefer a certain amount personal space away from other people. Drinking enabled me to suppress that. I guess this is an area I need to work on in my life.

Loud noisy environments also grate on my nerves as do sudden loud noises. Still trying to figure that out.

It's interesting learning more about myself. It's like unravelling a mystery. What a trip introspection can be. Who knew....probably lots of folks...but not me.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:31 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
When I would wake up from drinking dreams about a year or two after quitting, I would remember things as I slowly woke up that I could not access any other way. That made me realize there was a whole bank of memories inside my head that was fading away. As a binge drinker, the whole thirteen year long life of altered-state-me had been running parallel to the unaltered-state-me, and IT was dying and I was experiencing IT dying, but I refused to resurrect IT.
Nice...I like this!

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Forget fear. Enjoy freedom. It's always been our respective Beast which got drunk before, not you or me. With separation, the Beast has no physical means to actually become drunk, so it's game over for the Beast. The true goal with practicing AVRT is achievement of separation, yeah?

So, relax applecake, and enjoy the separation of you and your Beast as real experiential evidence of the veracity of your AVRT. No problemo!!

Thanks, Robby! You always make me smile.


Originally Posted by dybehfar View Post
...I just don't want to deal with people pestering me or pressing me why I am not drinking or take the incessant invitations to drink. It is really rather annoying when someone intoxicated keeps harping on it. Which I have already experienced.
These people are annoying! I've noticed that for the most part, most people are so absorbed with themselves and what they are doing that they don't really notice that I'm not drinking, as long as I don't make a big deal about it. But there are a few--it seems like my closest associates--who think that if they have a glass of wine in their hand, I must, too! I've started to see that this really is their beast being threatened by my decision not to drink. I have no control over their beast, so I've just tried to stick to my guns in a polite but firm way. BTW, I'm glad you're here, dybehfar.
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