soberlicious

I took the following to be directly related to alcohol consumption.
I thought the dicussion was about the use of "never" in relation to drinking alcohol, not whether the future in general is unknown. Guess I was confused. Oh well...

Whoa right there...that's only because she hasn't met you yet. My thoughts are with you during these hard times. It is a beautiful thing to see someone who was once addicted deal with life's deep waters with such equanimity.

vinyl

In my experience and understanding, the use of never in relation to alcohol IS the future unknown. As already pointed out, some have zero difficulty stating they will never drink again. However those are the very fortunate few I suppose. There is another large segment of people struggling with alcohol that find the finality of the statement to cause anxiety and undue pressure which many unlike yourself end up drinking again due to losing the battle against it.

However, it works for you, and that's awesome! I have found that I simply don't need that mantra in my life whatsoever, so I fall out of both camps I suppose. It's unnecessary for me. For me, not drinking right now gives me cause to celebrate my sobriety every passing moment without having to add anything extra to it, like a promises to myself regarding the future of drinking.

Please don't confuse this with intention. I don't intend to drink. The difference is impermanence and the idea that one has control over the future. I personally do not. Clearly some of you have a deep enough understanding that finality over what is to come is something you have clear control. That is just not my understanding nor experience.

For many, like yourself, the statement I will never drink again is just fine to use, but it's not for me. This I assume is the fundamental difference in our practice and though it may seem like a minute one, I think it's an important discussion. I'm glad you guys have been a part of it. I'm learning a lot. .

vinyl

Hey readyandable, I didn't even realize I used the word platitude. Very sorry for that, poor choice of words on my part. I'm glad what you're doing is working for you. It's inspiring and I wish you continued success with it, sincerely.

I think most of what we are all saying so far is very close.

soberlicious

Actually, not a few by any stretch. An untold vast number have quietly self-recovered over thousands of years by deciding they are forever done. It is actually quite common, the "never" sentiment. It comes in all versions, even in programs that make use of ODAAT. I have heard "put a white chip in your mouth and when it dissolves, then you can drink". It's pretty much "never".


I personally believe that people lose the battle to addiction precisely because they avoid anxiety and undue pressure. There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

RobbyRobot

Interesting comment, Soberlicious, about avoidance of anxiety and undue pressure. Strong terms you're using with "precisely because" ?!

Hmm. Much to think on, heh heh.

Thanks.

vinyl

I was referring to here, in this forum. But yes, let's just call it billions of people so you are satisfied.

Again it seems I did not articulate my meaning then. In my practice there is no avoiding natural feelings as they arise, whether it's anxiety, happiness, anger and so on. Quite the opposite in fact. It's the key to my practice. However some (many, millions billions, two, whatever number helps you understand) do not believe in controlling the future. This is just a fact, and it doesn't not mean they are not as enlightened as you are. It simply means adding unnecessary concepts is not needed for them.

And let's not get into who's path has been around longer, I think I'd win that one. Addiction to alcohol is a symptom of a much deeper samsara. I won't go in depth here, but living in the present moment and the Dharma has been around and practiced by quite a few more than those who just practice the phrase, I will never drink again. You'll just have to trust me and the centuries old teachings of Buddhism I guess.

Not sure how you are missing this and why we must belabor this simple difference, but it's ok, I will continue to discuss it over and over if you would like me to. But anyway, all my best to you and your path. I'm sincerely happy it works for you. Hopefully at some point you'll agree to disagree and not misunderstand what I'm saying or continue to take what I say out of context. Either way, be well.

soberlicious

I guess maybe you missed my post about this approach/paradigm being several thousand years old. I study Buddhism as well. I do not consider myself more enlightened than anyone else, in fact such comparisons are meaningless. Like I said, I'm enjoying the ride. I have not "missed" what you are saying, nor do I require further clarification. I like to see what makes people tick and how they view life, and equally I like to share my thoughts. I enjoy an exchange of ideas, however I sense that someone disagreeing with you makes you uncomfortable, so I'll not present any more ideas that appear contrary to yours.

vinyl

Not true at all, soberlicious, I welcome all thoughts and your contrary ideas. I was more frustrated with myself for not being able to clarify my thoughts for you to understand. I never intended for you to think I was upset in anyway by your disagreement. I don't get frustrated very easily these days. My concern was I wasn't being clear and you and I were going in circles.

Either way, it's all good.

And be contrary all you want! I welcome the learning experience.

soberlicious

I very much look forward to your thoughts, kind sir

MycoolFitz

Renunciation is not getting rid of the things of this world, but accepting that they pass away.
Aitken Roshi

vinyl

I had the pleasure of meeting Aitken Roshi at a retreat several years ago. Amazing guy.

soberlicious

I have understood all along
namaste bruthah

vinyl

Hey guys, So I've been able to help a few folks who PM'd me find a zen center in their area but a few others lived in remote areas or were otherwise unable to attend a center nearby.

For those folks and anyone else who can not make it to a center, I wanted to suggest an online center that holds zazen online. I think it's a great way to get comfortable with the practice first before committing and also a decent primer to the practice. However, there IS NO substitute to finding a real center and sitting with real people and discussing your practice with a Roshi (teacher).

With that said, drop by, check it out and join one of their sessions online: Treeleaf | Treeleaf Zendo, A Soto Zen Buddhist Sangha | Treeleaf

Be well. In gassho. _/\_