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Old 09-22-2012, 06:59 PM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
I could have blasted Jakkolanter personally, considering some of what he wrote, but I just ignored most of the irrelevant stuff, and kept shining the light on his Beast. You'll notice it threatened to cut and run at one point, but Jakkolantern apparently decided against that for now. In my mind, that means that he's winning, and that his Beast is losing.

That is what we do here, isn't it?
"It" threatened to cut and run? Please. My near-departure had nothing to do with drinking, not drinking, any tendency towards it or anything that threatens the AV.

This was the confirmation bias I was speaking to before. I was going to stop participating primarily because I recognized here the trappings of religion - and there's no sense arguing religion. It's not worth it. Nothing is to be gained. To you, it's got to be AV, and if I think different, it's because I don't recognize the AV. And so in your mind you're right no matter what. It's exactly the same logic that AA uses to decide people are in denial. EXACTLY.

I hate to be overly negative, but I don't respect that. That's the circular logic that makes me question the use of continuance in the conversation.

Soberlicious was wondering why Jakkolantern seemed defensive, but it was actually his Beast that was being defensive
Good lord.

Like I said, confirmation bias and borderline religion.

I have everything I need. Thanks.
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:20 PM
  # 82 (permalink)  
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Well, that didn't go well, lol.

Its all about the simple separation of ourselves, and our alcoholic desires (The Beast, no less) and our Addictive Voice (the voice of the Beast trying to get us to take that drink, because of course the Beast, being just desire, can't itself take a drink)

EDIT:

I also meant to say, I really don't see "religion" in any AVRT scenario...
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:28 PM
  # 83 (permalink)  
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In closing, and in retrospect, I should have expected this. After all, it's sound application of logic. If you cast everything as AV, you will, in fact, likely catch everything that is AV.

Given that this forum is about recovery, it is a better strategy than allowing everything to be grey.

But I don't care for that. I'd prefer to honestly ferret out what is AV and what is not, and when I see my own posts and drivers being vastly misinterpreted, I see that I'm not going to fit.

I've never been so sure about the workings of the inner mind of somebody else as some here seem to be about me, and it amazes me.

The good thing about AVRT is that it is a solo exercise. I didn't come to this forum for support or guidance, but initially just to voice my opinion of my short-term experience. I got trapped in the discussion because I'm a wordy bugger, and I do appreciate debate. But it has run its course, and so I do withdraw.

Good luck to all, and many will appreciate the single-minded dedication being shown to dealing with the AV. I do express admiration for your willingness to engage for the long haul.
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:48 PM
  # 84 (permalink)  
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Jakko,

Your antics of lashing out at others, at religion and other pet peeves, or of diverting the conversation away from the main topic to other irrelevant topics, are well known to anyone who has been around addicted and newly abstinent people. Such behavior predates you, and it will postdate you as well.

Nobody here owes you anything at all, however, particularly since AVRT is the lore of self-recovery. In theory, you should be able to do it all on your own by reading the Rational Recovery book. Any knowledge offered here on AVRT is essentially a freebie, to which you are not entitled, BTW, and you can take it or leave it as you see fit.
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Old 09-22-2012, 10:30 PM
  # 85 (permalink)  
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Or.... maybe Jakk found it a teeny, weeny bit annoying that he couldn't disagree with anything these last few days without it being attributed to the Beast?

I dunno, just a thought...

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Old 09-23-2012, 03:31 AM
  # 86 (permalink)  
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Did you ever sit quietly and look at your flow of thoughts. They don't always have truth, or meaning, or significance, sometimes they're just......well, thoughts. Confirmation bias, the interpretation of things according to ones belief system, that's everywhere and in everything, don't know how you really ever escape that. So easy to get carried away with it, you can use words like denial and rationalization to summarily dismiss everything the other party is saying. I think every group does that to some degree.
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:14 AM
  # 87 (permalink)  
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
Or.... maybe Jakk found it a teeny, weeny bit annoying that he couldn't disagree with anything these last few days without it being attributed to the Beast?

I dunno, just a thought...

I found much of what was being discussed as surreal to the larger purpose of AVRT. When things become polarized enough that something as simple as what is or isn't AV, (Addictive Voice) or what is or isn't the Beast (Addictive Desire) is debated, and the thrust of the discussion swings repeatedly into the personalities of various contributors, and the author of RR:TNC Jack Trimpey becomes fodder for the discussion, you can be assured there is going to be some difficulties in communication, yeah?

I think Jakk was treated fairly by all involved. I think Jakk took pains not to be misunderstood. I think Jakk arrived with a preset of conditions and understandings, based on his life experience, which he was not about to dump simply because he didn't have agreement in some discussions. No problemo, for me.

Jakk is no victim here, and he presented with skills showing he could easily hold his own counsel, lol. We didn't confuse or abuse Jakk, some of us just flat out didn't agree with what he was saying about AVRT from the get-go is all.

I respect Jakk, even though I don't agree with his summations of AVRT. I feel Jakk respects me, and others, in kind, so for me, this thread was productive and interesting, as I often said throughout.
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:29 AM
  # 88 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Did you ever sit quietly and look at your flow of thoughts. They don't always have truth, or meaning, or significance, sometimes they're just......well, thoughts. Confirmation bias, the interpretation of things according to ones belief system, that's everywhere and in everything, don't know how you really ever escape that. So easy to get carried away with it, you can use words like denial and rationalization to summarily dismiss everything the other party is saying. I think every group does that to some degree.
Yeah, perhaps. I dunno.

I think we can be at arm's length from many of our beliefs, if we choose to have that kind of a relationship with ourselves, and others. I'm not sure its helpful to generalize that we're all in someways victims of the limitations of our own beliefs. Certainly it can happen for some of us, maybe many of us, but I don't agree we all somehow have blood on our hands because we embrace beliefs of whatever...
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:28 AM
  # 89 (permalink)  
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I came across this discussion yesterday and because Iím not in the midst of it, might perceive it differently. But Iím a little concerned at what I read from R&A and aeo - and from Jakk as well - so wanted to offer this viewpoint.
Iím an intellectual feeling person, certainly not nearly as cerebral as some of yíall but without a doubt way more ďsensitiveĒ (self-conscious) than many. I read this discussion with a good deal of empathy for Jakk, knowing he would be challenged, if only for the fundamental lack of understanding of what constituted doubt in the context of AVRT.

(Jakk, if youíre still reading, donít construe any of the following to be trying to teach you anything you donít already know. Itís not an uncommon style in this discussion, making the same point again to ensure context.)

Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
Language is important. But sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
A cigar IS a cigar. In the case of AVRT, itís exactly that simple. Any thought that supports the idea of drinking again is attributed to the AV, speaking for the addiction. We recognize the AV by watching our language. Who is speaking here? The person I consider to be authentically me or the part of me that is my addiction? Language is important.

I appreciate that AVRT is so fundamentally simple. It does not allow wiggle room for rationalization or hand-wringing, it recognizes that addiction just is (however it came to be so) and that abstinence can be just as simple.

Originally Posted by aeo1313 View Post
I guess I don't even try to think any of this stuff out. I just don't drink. Any voice that tells me I can drink I dismiss as not my true self. I am making good choices as to how I live my life. I am nicer. I just don't drink or use...I guess I'm doing the AVRT for Dummies?
I think you are doing AVRT for Smarties. (Not those SMART folks, though Iím sure they wouldnít object!) You get it, you got it, youíre moving right along. What could be more rational?

Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
You know, while I find AVRT incredibly useful, I am beginning to question whether I should participate in the more granular discussions of it, such as those on the multi-part Secular Connections AVRT thread. Some elements feel increasingly rigid to me, almost like a doctrine, as if the ultimate goal was to master a certain philosophy. I view it as a means to an end, nothing more. My only goal was to escape addiction and cement my abstinence. Mission accomplished, ya know?
Part of what drew me to AVRT in the first place was a reluctance or inability to accept dogma. At the same time, I do not want to muddy the waters for others, because the clarity I saw in AVRT's core principles was also one of the draws. I've been thinking about one Robby's other posts today, about being authentic to himself. That hit home for me.
AVRT for Dummies sounds about right for me.
ReadyAndAble, I think that you bring value to these discussions because you have an eye out for the people behind the posts. This is not to say that others donít (why else would any of you successes be here conversing with those of us who wash up on shore?), but you have a knack for recognizing that the beast isnít the only one who can be wounded by the rapier thrust of logic and bulls***t detection that rules here. I canít speak for Jakk, but I know that I am still working on dissociating ďmeĒ from ďit,Ē and discerning which one of us is hurt (or irritated) sometimes is helped along with a variety of tools ranging from empathetic suggestion all the way through to the sledgehammer.

Not telling you or anyone else what to do, nor even suggesting. Just wanted to say that AVRT seems to have plenty of room for all manner of approaches.

Like BacktoSquareOne said alreadyÖ
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
It's like going on a diet, some just cut back on calories and increase their exercise. Others weigh their food on those little scales, count calories, keep meticulous food intake records and training journals, etc.etc.
But the basic truth remains
Reduce net calories = weight lost.
Recognize that any thought that supports drinking = addictive voice. The rational person can call that out for what it is.
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:16 PM
  # 90 (permalink)  
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Very interesting thread...happy to be on the sidelines....
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:19 PM
  # 91 (permalink)  
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lol, yeah, well, I'm glad we settled that.

Next?
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Old 09-24-2012, 06:26 AM
  # 92 (permalink)  
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The Core program seems like a lite version of AVRT. :
How to Quit Drinking without Alcoholics Anonymous. Does this work? | www.orange-papers.org
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:03 PM
  # 93 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
lol, yeah, well, I'm glad we settled that.

Next?
Yeah. I can dig it.

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Old 09-24-2012, 01:12 PM
  # 94 (permalink)  
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Priceless..........
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